[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by Tag

Show me non-M car that has had this happen to them. You won't find any because they don't have this design flaw. Just like not having protection on the front radiator (for AT) and front heat exchangers on the G87. These can be addressed by BMW engineers without using massive plates as you suggest. The bean counters however have looked at the likelihood that something will happen and have accepted the risk (on your behalf) to cut cost. I think any reasonable person understands this is rare but who wants to take that chance when you could lose your engine and all the headache and depreciation that comes along with that?

Anyone who buys an M car already pays to play by spending much more on an M vs the standard model. To expect buyers to first beware of the issue and then have to address it isn't paying to play, it's ridiculous.

P.S. I wasn't offended by your comments. Anyone should be able to discuss an issue and offer other perspectives. It's how we all learn from each other.

No, no direct knowledge on oil cooler damage (based on the G's under car location but the B9 S5 intercooler damage is directly in line with the G87 radiator concerns (and as I said, the Audi has a honeycomb grill, albeit plastic material, see below for stock photo for reference). This lack of protection is on all of the RS models and I believe a number of the S models. Unfortunately, cars are not designed to protect from large rocks or debris (except maybe the electric cars/SUVs without grills...then again they dont have ICEs which is another story/debate I am not getting into with thebtree huggers).

[rk95]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

This is not meant to reduce the empathy for the OP or anyone else who may face these issues (whether oil cooler or radiator damage) however its not like BMW didn't do any R&D on this car, the G Series M cars or any other cars you want to throw into the mix.

Plenty of research was done in multiple locations and under multiple conditions. Unfortunately, shit happens. Its not like 90% of these cars are coming in with damage. These are truly isolated incidents (considering the number of cars in circulation around the world). I am not blaming any driver but its not always an unavoidable situation. Some people pay no attention and some dont care (I see people launch over speed bumps at 30-40mph as they have no care in the world), they just drive along like driver and the car are invincible (or they want/hope to be). Its Murphys Law at play here, it is what it is.

Those screens are not going to prevent damage causing rocks/debris from doing their damage. Will they stop certain smaller debris, yes, but that smaller debris is not really the killer here. How often do you encounter bouncing rocks? Why you ask, cause unless its a damn huge rocks, how is it going to hit the cooler (how many inches from ground to cooler face? That is a more than decent size rock that everyone should avoid, no matter what car they drive.) If you have lowered your car so much that small rocks will not pass through, well that is on the car owner, not BMW. The CFS heat exchanger I have comes with a "rock guard" which will do nothing to stop a debris/prevent damage from anything other [...]

This. Couldn’t agree more

[xps]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

This is not meant to reduce the empathy for the OP or anyone else who may face these issues (whether oil cooler or radiator damage) however its not like BMW didn't do any R&D on this car, the G Series M cars or any other cars you want to throw into the mix.

Plenty of research was done in multiple locations and under multiple conditions. Unfortunately, shit happens. Its not like 90% of these cars are coming in with damage. These are truly isolated incidents (considering the number of cars in circulation around the world). I am not blaming any driver but its not always an unavoidable situation. Some people pay no attention and some dont care (I see people launch over speed bumps at 30-40mph as they have no care in the world), they just drive along like driver and the car are invincible (or they want/hope to be). Its Murphys Law at play here, it is what it is.

Those screens are not going to prevent damage causing rocks/debris from doing their damage. Will they stop certain smaller debris, yes, but that smaller debris is not really the killer here. How often do you encounter bouncing rocks? Why you ask, cause unless its a damn huge rocks, how is it going to hit the cooler (how many inches from ground to cooler face? That is a more than decent size rock that everyone should avoid, no matter what car they drive.) If you have lowered your car so much that small rocks will not pass through, well that is on the car owner, not BMW. The CFS heat exchanger I have comes with a "rock guard" which will do nothing to stop a debris/prevent damage from anything other than small innocuous items.

To literally stop/prevent the damage, you would need a very sturdy steel plate...and that would not be a feasible option as it would defeat the purpose of the cooler.

My B9 S5 had a plastic honeycomb in front of the intercooler...sure not going to stop any debris of damaging size. Case in point, my tuner has a B9 S5 and he had debris fly through that honeycomb on I95...result, smashed honeycomb and hole in the intercooler.

Sorry for the rant, and sorry if I offended anyone. My take, gotta pay if you want to play. Just my two pennies...

I have few points, I want to see if you agree-
1.) Will you not install a gaurd after knowing this can happen to these cars?

If your answer is No, then I commend your bravery that you are willing to go through this ordeal rather than protecting it from future possibility of the damage with $500 part.

If your answer is Yes. Then you agree BMW has a design gap and they left such a crucial component blatantly exposed and it requires an aftermarket part to correct their design

2.) If this is bad luck and happens primarily because of debri on road, does it also affect other makes similarly? The answer can be yes if the object was a large enough, but in my case this one is literally smaller than 1/8", this just tells me it is just a matter of time thes unprotected cars are hit by this issue leading to similar damage.

Also if this is such a rare phenomenon , I expect BMW to step up and own the short coming in their design and make this right.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by GG87M2

I would flat out demand a new car. Be nice about it but this isnt bad luck its a bad design. Interestingly I ordered my guard yesterday after reading about someone elses experience piercing their radiator.

XPS: Any update with BMW and your insurance company? You should demand a new car based on everything you have gone through.

[xps]

Originally Posted by fangelov

The pattern is there, but his looks to have a big crack in it.

No it doesn't. Like I mentioned above the underbody literally doesn't have a scratch, the car has a lot of salt dried up from the road and the reflection on the photo makes it look like it is damaged, but it is not. The only damage is in the oil cooler

[xps]

Originally Posted by RPM33

XPS: Any update with BMW and your insurance company? You should demand a new car based on everything you have gone through.

The dealer is supposed to call me to give an update and next steps. Just waiting on them to call. I already know what they are going to say but I need the statement before I escalate it to BMW NA before I go the insurance route.

[alex2364]

This oil cooler design started with F8x and S55 engines since 2015. S58 and B58 with the "Cooling and High Performance Tire Package" all have the same flaw. Quite a few people with F8x have had the same issue if you do a search. Doubtful BMW is going to do anything when they've known about this almost 9 years.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by xps

I have few points, I want to see if you agree-
1.) Will you not install a gaurd after knowing this can happen to these cars?

If your answer is No, then I commend your bravery that you are willing to go through this ordeal rather than protecting it from future possibility of the damage with $500 part.

If your answer is Yes. Then you agree BMW has a design gap and they left such a crucial component blatantly exposed and it requires an aftermarket part to correct their design

2.) If this is bad luck and happens primarily because of debri on road, does it also affect other makes similarly? The answer can be yes if the object was a large enough, but in my case this one is literally smaller than 1/8", this just tells me it is just a matter of time thes unprotected cars are hit by this issue leading to similar damage.

Also if this is such a rare phenomenon , I expect BMW to step up and own the short coming in their design and make this right.

For now, I am not adding anything. I am discussing with my builder and if we come up with something that will stop a larger object and not adversely affect the cooler, then that is a different story.

To add, is it a design flaw, I wouldn't call it that (to me, if you do, you are for the most part stating BMW doesn't kniw what they are doing (no, this is nit about money cause that would be pennies to add if the felt it was required)). I would be curious to know how many G80/82/87 cars have had oil coolers damaged/destroyed under these circumstances.

As far as size of the debris, there is no way that damage was from a 1/8" rock or similar sized piece of debris. That is from something much larger/heavier that was run over.

I would doubt, or be surprised, if BMW were to cover it. There was not a part failure or defective cooler, it was damage caused by another careless driver (notbsecuring debris that may have flown off their vehicle), mother nature (a rogue rock), ir even municipal workers for their shotty work and not cleaning up after road repairs or lack of general road upkeep.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by xps

The dealer is supposed to call me to give an update and next steps. Just waiting on them to call. I already know what they are going to say but I need the statement before I escalate it to BMW NA before I go the insurance route.

Really, similar to windshield damage from flying debris. Its most likely going to be an insurance claim (if so, you may want to make a police report for damage caused by road debris).

[Tag]

Originally Posted by alex2364

This oil cooler design started with F8x and S55 engines since 2015. S58 and B58 with the "Cooling and High Performance Tire Package" all have the same flaw. Quite a few people with F8x have had the same issue if you do a search. Doubtful BMW is going to do anything when they've known about this almost 9 years.

It goes back further than that, the F10 M5 had the same flawed design on the V8 twin turbo S63 engine.

[xps]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Really, similar to windshield damage from flying debris. Its most likely going to be an insurance claim (if so, you may want to make a police report for damage caused by road debris).

Do you file police report for wind shield damage? Never heard of it. Also how do I tell if it was debri on the road or if some thing flew from somewhere? Or of the oil cooler punctured itself due to oil pressure.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by xps

I have few points, I want to see if you agree-
1.) Will you not install a gaurd after knowing this can happen to these cars?

If your answer is No, then I commend your bravery that you are willing to go through this ordeal rather than protecting it from future possibility of the damage with $500 part.

If your answer is Yes. Then you agree BMW has a design gap and they left such a crucial component blatantly exposed and it requires an aftermarket part to correct their design

2.) If this is bad luck and happens primarily because of debri on road, does it also affect other makes similarly? The answer can be yes if the object was a large enough, but in my case this one is literally smaller than 1/8", this just tells me it is just a matter of time thes unprotected cars are hit by this issue leading to similar damage.

Also if this is such a rare phenomenon , I expect BMW to step up and own the short coming in their design and make this right.

Would you expect BMW to step up if a rock went through your headlight?

Considering the placement of that radiator, you have to be really unlucky for a rock to bounce up exactly at the right time AND be big enough to cause some real damage. Sucks this happened to you, but I don’t think I’d call it a design flaw.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by robopp

Would you expect BMW to step up if a rock went through your headlight?

Considering the placement of that radiator, you have to be really unlucky for a rock to bounce up exactly at the right time AND be big enough to cause some real damage. Sucks this happened to you, but I don’t think I’d call it a design flaw.

You're kidding, right? A damaged headlight doesn't blow up your engine no does it cost over $10k in damage.

Radiators and heat exchangers are fragile. They are literally thin pipes, typically aluminum, surrounded by thin fins to help dissipate heat. It's doesn't take much to put a dent in them much less puncture them. There's no way to determine the exact size of the object that caused the damage simply by looking at the size of the hole. Small rocks are able to cause big rock chips in your paint and even crack windshields depending on the angle they strike. Now place a fragile oil cooler underneath the car where the most road debris is and have it exposed. What could possibly go wrong?

[aerobod]

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly large piece of debris in a road construction zone would be the cause of the damage. It is highly unlikely that 2 small rocks at the same time caused the two points of damage and the bent fins just in front of it. I would think the debris would be a single piece that is at least as big as the distance between the bent oil cooler tube and the indent where the oil seems to have leaked from, at least 30mm / 1 1/4" across.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I wouldn't be surprised if a fairly large piece of debris in a road construction zone would be the cause of the damage. It is highly unlikely that 2 small rocks at the same time caused the two points of damage and the bent fins just in front of it. I would think the debris would be a single piece that is at least as big as the distance between the bent oil cooler tube and the indent where the oil seems to have leaked from, at least 30mm / 1 1/4" across.

Oh but closure speed of the particle and car matters. Smaller particles can cause nice damage. Its simply physics. This is not nearly as simple and clean as alluded to here at all by a few posters lol. AMG has offerings for this. BMW cannot? Absurd. This is easily fkn mitigated.

As the chief engineer of Subaru said about a lack of increase in hp for the WRX-STi a few years ago - why increase power, the after market will take care of that! Thats the makers mentality. They know this will happen and it could be catastrophic of course.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by xps

Do you file police report for wind shield damage? Never heard of it. Also how do I tell if it was debri on the road or if some thing flew from somewhere? Or of the oil cooler punctured itself due to oil pressure.

I was makingba sort of comparison to the windshield (in Florida, its covered as a no fault claim). For other damage for riad debris, if making a claim it will most likely fall under collision. If you just make the claim as is, it will show as "your fault" single car accident, worst kind if claim.

I do have direct experience in this...a fewbyears ago, wife was driving a two month old car down a highway in S Florida. A piece of pipe flew off a wirk truck in front of her. She swerved to avoid the direct damage and to not hit the car to her right, she clipped the median curb. Entire fro b t drivers suspension was trashed. Close to $5k in parts and labor to make the repair. We made a claim on our insurance (which we for the following reason no longer use this company), said nothing and just wrote up the claim and paid less our deductible. Next renewal period, whammy! Major premium increase. When I called to complain, the firat this they said was did you get a police report? I said no, why would I have? They said the report to show that it was caused by road debris and not reckless/careless driving. They said without a report, nothing they could do.

Dont know if it is true in your State or other, but road debris is a major problem in Florida so I am sure that had/has something to do with it.

In your case, you dont know the type of debris but should be abke to ascertain the area and just identify it as road debris. Worst case, if it doesnt help with your insurance, it was only some time out of your day to file the report.

[xps]

Originally Posted by robopp

Would you expect BMW to step up if a rock went through your headlight?

Considering the placement of that radiator, you have to be really unlucky for a rock to bounce up exactly at the right time AND be big enough to cause some real damage. Sucks this happened to you, but I don’t think I’d call it a design flaw.

I would have paid out of pocket and probably be little upset that the headlight lense is designed to not withstand regular debri from road. But I would have definitely be as mad as I am now if the headlight damage made the car lose its engine or a similar crucial component.

I will give an example with how my thought goes in this matter - What if the windshield had a 1/2" x 1/2" hole with brittle plastic covering right in front of drivers face and the chance of getting hit by a debri is minimal and the chance the debri killing the driver is even less, would you still argue this is not a design flaw because it is not common?

Here we are talking about $45k replacement that is going to bother my insurance premiums for a long time. Note that I have not had a single claims until now,

My point is the oil cooler is weak point of the engine left to luck of the owner, the issue is the lack of any protection in the design.

I know the owner is the loser here, and the odds are not in favor. But this is a design flaw and negligence on bmws part.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by Tag

You're kidding, right? A damaged headlight doesn't blow up your engine no does it cost over $10k in damage.

Radiators and heat exchangers are fragile. They are literally thin pipes, typically aluminum, surrounded by thin fins to help dissipate heat. It's doesn't take much to put a dent in them much less puncture them. There's no way to determine the exact size of the object that caused the damage simply by looking at the size of the hole. Small rocks are able to cause big rock chips in your paint and even crack windshields depending on the angle they strike. Now place a fragile oil cooler underneath the car where the most road debris is and have it exposed. What could possibly go wrong?

Oil levels and pressure are monitored constantly. 7.4 quarts of oil(1.85 gallons) doesn’t just disappear.

A parralel radiator is a lot less vulnerable than a perpendicular one. Radiators need access to ambient, you can’t cover them up without negative effects.

You also assume this was a rock. It might have been a piece of steel that would have ripped through any screen in place.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Oh but closure speed of the particle and car matters. Smaller particles can cause nice damage. Its simply physics. This is not nearly as simple and clean as alluded to here at all by a few posters lol. AMG has offerings for this. BMW cannot? Absurd. This is easily fkn mitigated.

As the chief engineer of Subaru said about a lack of increase in hp for the WRX-STi a few years ago - why increase power, the after market will take care of that! Thats the makers mentality. They know this will happen and it could be catastrophic of course.

In this particular case, there is no way a single small item hitting in the front damage area could then move downwards then up again (magically changing it's momentum without input from another surface) to re-impact slightly further back, just simply physics in that case, too. Going by the roundness of the tube distortion, it may not even be a rock, perhaps something more like a pronged metal object.

Doesn't mean to say extra protection isn't advisable, but this damage does not seem consistent with just a small rock from off the road surface.

[xps]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

I was makingba sort of comparison to the windshield (in Florida, its covered as a no fault claim). For other damage for riad debris, if making a claim it will most likely fall under collision. If you just make the claim as is, it will show as "your fault" single car accident, worst kind if claim.

I do have direct experience in this...a fewbyears ago, wife was driving a two month old car down a highway in S Florida. A piece of pipe flew off a wirk truck in front of her. She swerved to avoid the direct damage and to not hit the car to her right, she clipped the median curb. Entire fro b t drivers suspension was trashed. Close to $5k in parts and labor to make the repair. We made a claim on our insurance (which we for the following reason no longer use this company), said nothing and just wrote up the claim and paid less our deductible. Next renewal period, whammy! Major premium increase. When I called to complain, the firat this they said was did you get a police report? I said no, why would I have? They said the report to show that it was caused by road debris and not reckless/careless driving. They said without a report, nothing they could do.

Dont know if it is true in your State or other, but road debris is a major problem in Florida so I am sure that had/has something to do with it.

In your case, you dont know the type of debris but should be abke to ascertain the area and just identify it as road debris. Worst case, if it doesnt help with your insurance, it was only some time out of your day to file the report.

Ok, MI is no fault state, and I think it falls under comprehensive coverage from what I have read. I will know if/when I claim insurance.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by robopp

Oil levels and pressure are monitored constantly. 7.4 quarts of oil(1.85 gallons) doesn’t just disappear.

You can find numerous threads dating back years of people getting a warning and by the time they were able to safely pull over the engine was gone.

Originally Posted by robopp

A parralel radiator is a lot less vulnerable than a perpendicular one. Radiators need access to ambient, you can’t cover them up without negative effects.

And yet here we are, another oil cooler that's taken out an entire engine.

Originally Posted by robopp

You also assume this was a rock. It might have been a piece of steel that would have ripped through any screen in place.

Even if it was something in the road my point stands. The fact that anyone finds it an acceptable risk that running over something in the road that on 99% cars would cause little to no damage on could potentially destroy your engine is absurd.

#DesignFlaw

[xps]

Originally Posted by robopp

Oil levels and pressure are monitored constantly. 7.4 quarts of oil(1.85 gallons) doesn’t just disappear.

A parralel radiator is a lot less vulnerable than a perpendicular one. Radiators need access to ambient, you can’t cover them up without negative effects.

You also assume this was a rock. It might have been a piece of steel that would have ripped through any screen in place.

I actually went back to trace out, I see a huge puddle of oil at the place where I was parked to wait for tow truck, i would say 4x4 ft. And the dealer showed me about a 1-1.5quart they drained out from the engine. So I think due to the size of the puncture, and the engine running the oil must have squirted out 3-4qt before the engine was turned off.