[Squidget]

Originally Posted by npirnia

I hear you, part of why I didn't buy the F87 - its heavy.

-Nick

You snark, but it's a good point. If a person over-focuses on weight to the exclusion of everything else, they can miss a good thing. The G87 is a significant leap forward.

The base G87 solidly dusts the base F87 on every axis (performance, comfort, materials quality, interior space, tech, tunability). Everything except weight. A fair trade IMO.

Now that I've driven it, I can also say the G87 beats the F87 on steering precision and shifter feel. So it's got some wins over the F87 in terms of driving pleasure, it's not just performance wins. And ooh boy is it a better daily driver.

ALSO, the G87 seems to be meeting or beating the F87C on every axis except weight. A bonus!

ALSO ALSO, the G87 seems be to uncomfortably close to the F87CS. Jury is still out IMO, but the fact it's even possible is scary. And the G87 has armrests and other comforts.

I'm not ragging on the F87 here. I'm just saying that sometimes you get a better car by adding things to it. Weight isn't everything.

Porsches have been gaining weight steadily for years, somehow they are doing OK. Also Lotus. And, well, everyone else.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Squidget

You snark, but it's a good point. If a person over-focuses on weight to the exclusion of everything else, they can miss a good thing. The G87 is a significant leap forward.

The base G87 solidly dusts the base F87 on every axis (performance, comfort, materials quality, interior space, tech, tunability). Everything except weight. A fair trade IMO.

Now that I've driven it, I can also say the G87 beats the F87 on steering precision and shifter feel. So it's got some wins over the F87 in terms of driving pleasure, it's not just performance wins. And ooh boy is it a better daily driver.

ALSO, the G87 seems to be meeting or beating the F87C on every axis except weight. A bonus!

ALSO ALSO, the G87 seems be to uncomfortably close to the F87CS. Jury is still out IMO, but the fact it's even possible is scary. And the G87 has armrests and other comforts.

I'm not ragging on the F87 here. I'm just saying that sometimes you get a better car by adding things to it. Weight isn't everything.

Porsches have been gaining weight steadily for years, somehow they are doing OK. Also Lotus. And, well, everyone else.

I actually wonder, how much better would F87CS have done with the S58

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I actually wonder, how much better would F87CS have done with the S58

On paper, scary good. S58+DCT sounds potent.

But, the F87 chassis tended to have traction issues in the rear, so putting more power back there isn't automatically better. They'd have to sort that out, but I don't see why they couldn't manage it.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by Squidget

On paper, scary good. S58+DCT sounds potent.

But, the F87 chassis tended to have traction issues in the rear, so putting more power back there isn't automatically better. They'd have to sort that out, but I don't see why they couldn't manage it.

At worst, they'd detune it a little

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Car looks great in black, can’t hide that weight though.

It’s not how fast you go

But how well you go fast…💨

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

It’s not how fast you go

But how well you go fast…💨

That's prophetic

[///M TOWN]

Hilarious ❕

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Car looks great in black, can’t hide that weight though.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm about the weight. We need like a font or something because half the time it's damn near impossible to tell.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

I'm assuming this is sarcasm about the weight. We need like a font or something because half the time it's damn near impossible to tell.

Not sarcasm. It’s power is very impressive, but it’s power to weight is really the cars achilles heel. Looking at the IND dyno’s it’s over 460hp at the wheels and well over 500 at the crank. A stripped out track special like Jackie Ding is building that gets closer to 3500lbs will be a real weapon.

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Squidget

You snark, but it's a good point. If a person over-focuses on weight to the exclusion of everything else, they can miss a good thing. The G87 is a significant leap forward.

The base G87 solidly dusts the base F87 on every axis (performance, comfort, materials quality, interior space, tech, tunability). Everything except weight. A fair trade IMO.

Now that I've driven it, I can also say the G87 beats the F87 on steering precision and shifter feel. So it's got some wins over the F87 in terms of driving pleasure, it's not just performance wins. And ooh boy is it a better daily driver.

ALSO, the G87 seems to be meeting or beating the F87C on every axis except weight. A bonus!

ALSO ALSO, the G87 seems be to uncomfortably close to the F87CS. Jury is still out IMO, but the fact it's even possible is scary. And the G87 has armrests and other comforts.

I'm not ragging on the F87 here. I'm just saying that sometimes you get a better car by adding things to it. Weight isn't everything.

Porsches have been gaining weight steadily for years, somehow they are doing OK. Also Lotus. And, well, everyone else.

Some snark? Perhaps, but I'm mostly serious.

When it comes to sports cars, I care a lot about mass and I did write off the original F87 for being too heavy to take seriously.

Part of it is that I really liked the BMW 135i and it is one of the cars that I missed out on. I almost bought one in 2011, but my wife and I were just getting "real jobs" and it seemed like too much financial risk at the moment. When the new 2-series came out, it seemed like a hopeless watering down of the 1-series' quirkiness. The proportions were still goofy, but just normalized enough to look off to me. And the subsequent M2 had numb steering and a couple of hundred pounds more curb weight more than the 135i for a marginal gain in performance. It struck me as a bad value.

But people seemed to like the OG M2, so I drove one and was rather underwhelmed. The N55's power band seemed truckish to me and the interior was not as nice as my then fairly new 340i with the first B58. My 340i had a much better engine (imho), nicer interior, more daily livable, and more features. It wasn't worth the money to gain the improvements in backroad performance in exchange for losing ground in these other significant areas.

Then the M2C was announced and I was interested again. The new M2C also gained another couple of hundred pounds, but since it was becoming the norm I put it behind me and drove the car. Like before, it just didn't seem to be enough change from my 340i for the money.

Plus, the M2C gained 4+% more curb weight for just a new engine and associated cooling.

The G87 is about 5+% heavier than the M2C, but it gains a new engine, bigger contact patches, adaptive suspension, an all new platform, and E-diff; a lot more stuff relative to the added weight! Plus, those features help to offset the effect of the added weight, while the M2C didn't see the same degree of improvement to offset its own weight gain.

So for what you get in the F87 M2 (or M2C), it is too heavy imho. And prior M2 owners complaining about weight is the pot calling the kettle black.

-Nick

PS - my weights came from C&D tests for the different M2 variants with manual transmissions (yes, the good M2s ). Choosing a single source for consistency in technique and knowing that C&D actually weighs the cars they test.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Not sarcasm. It’s power is very impressive, but it’s power to weight is really the cars achilles heel. Looking at the IND dyno’s it’s over 460hp at the wheels and well over 500 at the crank. A stripped out track special like Jackie Ding is building that gets closer to 3500lbs will be a real weapon.

Right but at the end of the day, this is a street car first and track car second, just like 99% of cars being made. From my experience, owning multiple F series M cars, the weight on this car isn't an issue. I'm not tracking my time to Target and back but I can tell you first hand, the car is an absolute joy to drive. It puts down power, its fast up top, youre much more planted in corners, etc.
Besides, I'm not chasing seconds on the track, it's a blast on there but its not like this is a stripped out race car nor do I get big cash prizes for going around faster than someone else.
Basically, the car is capable as F_(× out there and is a step up drastically from any F series car.

[Squidget]

Yeah. the F87 series was a weird run. Stuff like the seat position, and putting the N55 into a supposed M car. Less aggressive styling. Problems with rear traction. You'd never see such things in the M3/M4 cars.

The Comp fixed some stuff, but IMO it felt like the CS was when BMW said "ok, let's START thinking about making this a real M car now."

And with the G87, the M2 now feels dead serious. Legitimate. A real M car with no exceptions, every bit as competent and powerful as its siblings. Extremely similar to the M3/M4 in almost every way, especially attitude.

Which is mostly a good thing, IMO. But it's a bad thing if you don't like the "seriousness" of G87x. G87 has lost some whimsy, some liveliness in the rear. It's also aggressive as hell, and some people don't like that.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Not sarcasm. It’s power is very impressive, but it’s power to weight is really the cars achilles heel. Looking at the IND dyno’s it’s over 460hp at the wheels and well over 500 at the crank. A stripped out track special like Jackie Ding is building that gets closer to 3500lbs will be a real weapon.

I don't know what the G87 CS will be, but we can always hope they use some weight saving materials.

Unlike the F87, I don't think the G87 CS will need more structural bracing. They pre-emptively did that already in the G87. Ditto larger brakes and tires. So it's possible that the weight actually goes down this time for the CS.

Probably not all the way down to 3500, though.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Right but at the end of the day, this is a street car first and track car second, just like 99% of cars being made. From my experience, owning multiple F series M cars, the weight on this car isn't an issue. I'm not tracking my time to Target and back but I can tell you first hand, the car is an absolute joy to drive. It puts down power, its fast up top, youre much more planted in corners, etc.
Besides, I'm not chasing seconds on the track, it's a blast on there but its not like this is a stripped out race car nor do I get big cash prizes for going around faster than someone else.
Basically, the car is capable as F_(× out there and is a step up drastically from any F series car.

For sure, it’s a wonderful street car and I understand that perspective. I owned an F87 M2C myself although didn’t ultimately love it. My M340i weighs 3900lbs, it’s a missile. Is the weight an issue? No, not really. Would it be better dynamically at 3500lbs? Yes. You really cannot argue against the dynamic benefits of a lighter car. David Twohig who developed the A110 was on the smoking tire recently, there was some great insights into light weighting on there. As another poster said I hope they go all out on an end of run CSL and really go after it like they did with thr E46 CSL.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Wonderful, another thread on the front page to bring the haters.

Dude, it never fails. It's the most consistent thing on this forum.

Originally Posted by Mamba

The M2 looks sick IMO! Especially in all black spec.

There is a dude near me that got his Zandvoort Blue M2 around the same time I got my car. That thing is NAAASTY! I even love the color and I didn't think I would when I saw it in pictures. The M2 is very aggressive and has serious street presence. I love it!

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

I actually wonder, how much better would F87CS have done with the S58

the s58 is basically the same engine with larger turbos. so you get all the large turbo benefits and drawbacks.. more lag, less bottom end, but more top end and tuning potential.

just depends what you want. i would have rather had bmw up the S58 displacement to between 3.5 or 4.0 and kept the turbo size down.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

the s58 is basically the same engine with larger turbos. so you get all the large turbo benefits and drawbacks.. more lag, less bottom end, but more top end and tuning potential.

just depends what you want. i would have rather had bmw up the S58 displacement to between 3.5 or 4.0 and kept the turbo size down.

What didn’t you like about the S58 when you drove the M2?

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Not sarcasm. It’s power is very impressive, but it’s power to weight is really the cars achilles heel. Looking at the IND dyno’s it’s over 460hp at the wheels and well over 500 at the crank. A stripped out track special like Jackie Ding is building that gets closer to 3500lbs will be a real weapon.

The power to weight is not bad at all. When you consider whp instead of just the quoted numbers the M2 should have a ~3-5% better power/weight ratio than my Z51 C7 Corvette, ~8.2lb/hp vs ~8.5lb/hp. And that car felt more than fast enough 99% of the time. The M2 is right inbetween the C7 and C8 (~8.1lb/hp) in terms of power/weight. With a small tune and maybe some minor weight reduction the M2 will be more than capable enough

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

the s58 is basically the same engine with larger turbos. so you get all the large turbo benefits and drawbacks.. more lag, less bottom end, but more top end and tuning potential.

just depends what you want. i would have rather had bmw up the S58 displacement to between 3.5 or 4.0 and kept the turbo size down.

There is actually not much in common between the S58 and S55.
Apart from purely mechanical differences, they are two conceptually different engines.
Small turbochargers and high compression ratio for the S55, large turbochargers and low compression ratio for the S58.
With larger turbochargers, the S55 does not become an S58, but just an engine with a high risk of detonation. Hence the huge difference in tuning potential.
The S58 does not have more lag than the S58, it only has a higher boost threshold (for the aforementioned reasons).

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

There is actually not much in common between the S58 and S55.
Apart from purely mechanical differences, they are two conceptually different engines.
Small turbochargers and high compression ratio for the S55, large turbochargers and low compression ratio for the S58.
With larger turbochargers, the S55 does not become an S58, but just an engine with a high risk of detonation. Hence the huge difference in tuning potential.
The S58 does not have more lag than the S58, it only has a higher boost threshold (for the aforementioned reasons).

Yep. When you look at the dynos these motors have different curves. One is not just a bigger version of the other.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

There is actually not much in common between the S58 and S55.
Apart from purely mechanical differences, they are two conceptually different engines.
Small turbochargers and high compression ratio for the S55, large turbochargers and low compression ratio for the S58.
With larger turbochargers, the S55 does not become an S58, but just an engine with a high risk of detonation. Hence the huge difference in tuning potential.
The S58 does not have more lag than the S58, it only has a higher boost threshold (for the aforementioned reasons).

i agree the S58 has higher boost threshold and lower compression. But there is definitely more lag. a larger turbo takes longer to spool. and a heavier car is harder to move than a lighter one given the same displacement engine.


from https://bmwtuning.co/s55-vs-s58/

BMW S55 vs S58 Performance
What is clear as of right now, is that S58 is more powerful and offers better performance, from the factory. But that doesn’t answer the question, which platform has the greatest potential?

The bottom line is that the S55 vs S58 have vastly different performance characteristics and that they both suit different driving styles better. One of the major considerations is how both engines deliver boost. The BMW S58 has both a higher boost threshold and more turbo lag than the S55 due to the fact that the S58 has larger turbos and a lower compression ratio. This makes the S55 feel more immediate and responsive when you step on the gas. However, the S58’s power delivery feels more akin to a naturally aspirated engine, with power rolling on gradually as the turbos spool.

The S58’s larger turbos and lower compression ratio are also a big part of the reason that it has more power potential than the BMW S55 with factory hardware. There is essentially added headroom for aftermarket antics built into the BMW S58. Now that the aftermarket community is beginning to get caught up with S58 modifications, we are beginning to see absolutely wild horsepower numbers from the S58 that wouldn’t be possible with the S55 without extensive engine building.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

i agree the S58 has higher boost threshold and lower compression. But there is definitely more lag. a larger turbo takes longer to spool. and a heavier car is harder to move than a lighter one given the same displacement engine.


from https://bmwtuning.co/s55-vs-s58/

I did not find a higher turbo lag on the S58 than on the S55, just a higher boost threshold. I think there is confusion between turbo lag and boost threshold and what they are caused by, it is not just a question of "bigger turbos = more lag", but a more complex issue.