[m2ss]

Originally Posted by AlpineBoost

I've only listened to a few of these episodes. Takes a good 4-6 mins to really start talking about the M2. 10 minutes in and they've convinced me to skip the M2 altogether and get a Dino 246 or Lancia Stratos instead.

Its been real, y'all ✌️

Thatta boy!

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW3C...p=ygUGYm13IG0y

just posted. looks like they start off talking about the M2.

cliffs:
- he spent a week daily drivng the new M2
- too big
- poor riding luxury car that is trying to be a sports car. He equates it to being a heavy luxury car that its suspension swapped with a track cars.
- F87 is a better car in almost every way
- the UI is terrible (things buried deep within it, auto starts with lane assist, etc)
- if only comparing to modern rivals its ok (steering is ok, it has a manual)

It was a good listen. Like the M2, a little heavy at times but overall I enjoyed it.

A couple other remarks by Jason:

"That car is, technologically from a driving dynamic standpoint, is very good. It's very, very fast indeed—"

"There is no joy left in this thing at all. It's joy by virtue or G forces. I will say that. That thing generates a lot of cornering grip, it's very fast, it can actually put the power down—"


I can't help but laugh about one thing though. For the majority of the episode they talk about Ferrari and eventually get to reviews and how they may change over time right around 44 mins in. How the 206/246 was an instant hit while the 308 wasn't well received until revisited years later.

Their own words on the 308:

"Changed the formula completely", "crazy, severe, angular, 80's almost", "appears visually massive", "acquired taste, took me years to come around", "drives even better", "engine is a monster", "more stable", "shit ton more fire power". 🤔

Different times and Jason even mentions that the G87 is not a bad car for its day, but hopefully he'll take his own advice and revisit it in a few years.

[Davil]

Double whammy here. Throttle House and Camissa. Enjoy.

That new throttle house adventure series was so good. I swear that was Squidget yelling at JamesThrottle in Vegas in Ep3.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1zx8-CBtXIs

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Davil

Double whammy here. Throttle House and Camissa. Enjoy.

That new throttle house adventure series was so good. I swear that was Squidget yelling at JamesThrottle in Vegas in Ep3.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1zx8-CBtXIs

Nah, there are other things I'd rather be doing in Vegas

[2manycars]

Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

First of all, my personal car collection really doesn't have a bearing on reviewing new cars. I see yours'es points, but I'm not paid to review cars whether I like them personally. For the record, I hate a lot of cars that I give screamingly positive reviews for — and vice-versa. The question I answer is "does this car does what it says it will do on the box?" not "does Jason like it?"

I live in the SF Bay Area, and specifically in an area where roads are absolutely tiny and parking spots are even smaller. My e-Golf is too big to fit in half the parking spots here, so tiny cars work.

On the FWD EV: remember that I test cars for a living, which means I typically have a test car all the time. I don't actually need a daily-driver, but I do like to have a dinghy: something small that I can park in the city, or drive places where I wouldn't want to be in somebody else's $200k attention-getting brand-new car.

I have 9 other cars that require oil changes and maintenance, so an EV was an obvious choice — especially with HOV-lane access. And there was no way I was going to buy a penalty-box like a Bolt or a Leaf or even an i3.

The e-Golf is a GTI without turbo lag. It generates 1.07 g of ass-out skidpad grip thanks to sticky PS4Ses and a big 034 Motorsport rear bar. It leaves a GTI for dead in traffic, and is even quicker over bumpy-as-hell 1st and 2nd-gear twisties. Plus, it seats 5 or hauls refrigerators in a small footprint. No-brainer once you understand that.

Anyway, onto the G87.

I don't hate it. Dynamically it's a step forward. I don't think it's faster than the F87, but it puts power down much better. Still does the rear-end wiggle that we first felt in the E90 335i and E82 135i, but it doesn't break loose.

The UX is a nightmare. Sure you can get used to it, just like you can get used to Tinnitus. Doesn't make it good.

I'm really glad the M2 exists, so there's that. If I bought one, I'd probably enjoy it. But I have to point out that the last car did the "M2 Thing" better. It was (IMO) way better to look at, and it was unquestionably more fun to drive on a daily basis.

Was it a riot? No.

But it was fizzy and alive in a way that most modern BMWs aren't. Great engine, good steering, the right(ish) size, etc. It was a solid "good" as a daily... but became an unmitigated riot when you drove it at the limit, especially on a trac. (Like the Harris video pointed out.)

I'm sure the G87 will be just as good — if not better — when you're hooning it sideways. I didn't. I just... drove it. Around town, on some back roads, to the office. And there, it just feels like a... car.

A car with sand in the dampers, with great seats (despite the stupid scrotum-rest), with a decent manual, okay steering, meh visibility, a back seat I can't sit upright in, and a bunch of digital displays designed by blind people with no fingers who've never driven a car. Lane-keep that yanks the wheel right the F out of your hand (I was told by a very angry BMW that it's possible to turn this off permanently using a Profile), auto-blip that you have to turn off every time (see previous parenthesis), an engine that sounds just okay inside the car (it's absent at low revs, then harsh at the top of the tach), and an overall isolated experience (I was always going 15 mph quicker than I thought.)

Is it bad? Of course not. But pound for pound, in normal use, I think the old M2 did a better job at providing a special experience.

And that's why I brought up the GR86/BRZ. I've seen the "they're nothing special" comments but I couldn't disagree more. Measured by the numbers, they're indeed nothing special. But as an experience, they're unmatched.

If BMW's engineers spent time with cars like those — or CTRs, or even Porsche 911s — maybe they'd stop slapping "Ultimate Driving Machine" taglines on massively overweight luxury cars. The company is just conflicted — it wants to be a luxury brand, but keeps promising us that the experience will be there. It's just... not.

And the last M2 was the last BMW that had a personality at real-world speeds. Sadly, it, too, has become and M4. Super capable — kudos on that engineering and all, but... can we just have a little fun please?

[wavyyyy]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

First of all, my personal car collection really doesn't have a bearing on reviewing new cars. I see yours'es points, but I'm not paid to review cars whether I like them personally. For the record, I hate a lot of cars that I give screamingly positive reviews for — and vice-versa. The question I answer is "does this car does what it says it will do on the box?" not "does Jason like it?"

I live in the SF Bay Area, and specifically in an area where roads are absolutely tiny and parking spots are even smaller. My e-Golf is too big to fit in half the parking spots here, so tiny cars work.

On the FWD EV: remember that I test cars for a living, which means I typically have a test car all the time. I don't actually need a daily-driver, but I do like to have a dinghy: something small that I can park in the city, or drive places where I wouldn't want to be in somebody else's $200k attention-getting brand-new car.

I have 9 other cars that require oil changes and maintenance, so an EV was an obvious choice — especially with HOV-lane access. And there was no way I was going to buy a penalty-box like a Bolt or a Leaf or even an i3.

The e-Golf is a GTI without turbo lag. It generates 1.07 g of ass-out skidpad grip thanks to sticky PS4Ses and a big 034 Motorsport rear bar. It leaves a GTI for dead in traffic, and is even quicker over bumpy-as-hell 1st and 2nd-gear twisties. Plus, it seats 5 or hauls refrigerators in a small footprint. No-brainer once you understand that.

Anyway, onto [...]

Thank you for your input. Idrive 8 is fucking garbage, I have it in my g80 m3.

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

First of all, my personal car collection really doesn't have a bearing on reviewing new cars. I see yours'es points, but I'm not paid to review cars whether I like them personally. For the record, I hate a lot of cars that I give screamingly positive reviews for — and vice-versa. The question I answer is "does this car does what it says it will do on the box?" not "does Jason like it?"

I live in the SF Bay Area, and specifically in an area where roads are absolutely tiny and parking spots are even smaller. My e-Golf is too big to fit in half the parking spots here, so tiny cars work.

On the FWD EV: remember that I test cars for a living, which means I typically have a test car all the time. I don't actually need a daily-driver, but I do like to have a dinghy: something small that I can park in the city, or drive places where I wouldn't want to be in somebody else's $200k attention-getting brand-new car.

I have 9 other cars that require oil changes and maintenance, so an EV was an obvious choice — especially with HOV-lane access. And there was no way I was going to buy a penalty-box like a Bolt or a Leaf or even an i3.

The e-Golf is a GTI without turbo lag. It generates 1.07 g of ass-out skidpad grip thanks to sticky PS4Ses and a big 034 Motorsport rear bar. It leaves a GTI for dead in traffic, and is even quicker over bumpy-as-hell 1st and 2nd-gear twisties. Plus, it seats 5 or hauls refrigerators in a small footprint. No-brainer once you understand that.

Anyway, onto [...]

Appreciate you taking the time to clarify a few things and share your additional thoughts. So no Hagerty G87 vid in the works?

[Humdizzle]

great post by Jason.

i get what he's saying. The new M2 isn't really an M2 anymore. objectively better, but subjectively probably not... just depends on your use case.

[moodyhank82]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Anyway, onto the G87.

I don't hate it. Dynamically it's a step forward. I don't think it's faster than the F87, but it puts power down much better. Still does the rear-end wiggle that we first felt in the E90 335i and E82 135i, but it doesn't break loose.

I'm really glad the M2 exists, so there's that. If I bought one, I'd probably enjoy it. But I have to point out that the last car did the "M2 Thing" better. It was (IMO) way better to look at, and it was unquestionably more fun to drive on a daily basis.
Sadly, it, too, has become and M4. Super capable — kudos on that engineering and all, but... can we just have a little fun please?

Hi Jason,

I really enjoy your content going back to your days with Lieberman. Hope you can answer couple of follow-ups:

1) As a prospective owner who had to order without a test drive, I am struggling to understand how a more capable M2 with better dynamic capabilities is a step backwards from an overall enjoyment perspective?

2) You and many other auto journalist/youtubers commented on how the M2 lost its character and now it is just a mini M4. But for the people like me buying these cars with their hard-earned cash, isn't that a good thing that now there is an M4 that starts at $62k as opposed to nearly $80k? Shouldn't BMW be praised for bringing out a rwd coupe with 6MT, an e-diff, hefty brakes, and chunky tires at a "discount" price, relatively speaking?

3) Other than the obvious power delta, GR86/BRZ also come with many compromises for a dd: basic interior, loud cabin, truly unusable back seats (my kids in their car seats can use M2's back seats but not the GR86/BRZ back seats). For an enthusiast who wants to daily a fun manual car with practicality without braking the bank, other than 4 BW and maybe the Golf R, what else is really out there to even consider? 4BW has a cheap interior and questionable long-term resale. Golf R has an infotainment even more frustrating than ID8 plus it is on a fwd platform with an uninspiring 4 banger.

[Tag]

The same was said when the F80/82 came out. It was the very first FI M car and they didn't get it right first time around. The throttle was spiky, and the chassis tuning wasn't as dialed in. By the time they came out with the Comp/LCI models that was all sorted with software tuning and the very same people that didn't like the car all came around and said "this is how it should have been from the very start". Believe it or not BMW does listen to feedback when it comes to the driving experience. It's selective however since they seem to be deaf when it comes to aesthetics. Don't plan on getting the G87 until LCI so in a way I'm happy any shortcomings the car may have are being pointed out. I do feel bad for the early adopters that get the car and are not happy with it. Sorry guys/gals.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

And the last M2 was the last BMW that had a personality at real-world speeds. Sadly, it, too, has become and M4. Super capable — kudos on that engineering and all, but... can we just have a little fun please?

The comfort-sport spectrum is wider on this car than the last, especially with the 6MT. Yes, it’s tame at normal driving intensity, but it’s a total beast when you rip it. Head to Alice’s, pick a direction, and drive it harder than you’ve been driving it around town.

I predict there will be some who give up on their 6MT cars before break-in purely based on the impression the car gives when driving at 5/10ths or whatever. That will be a mistake.

Try the ZF8 version before drawing your final conclusion on the G87. The shorter gearing makes the car’s more manic side incrementally more accessible.

Disagree on iDrive 8. As with most interfaces, familiarity is more important in the long run. There’s nothing unreasonable about having to spend an hour or three learning to use a UI bolted to a complex $60k machine. The payoff is worth it. Even if a few functions take an extra tap or two, I get a far more versatile system in return. Hard buttons in exchange for significantly more screen real estate; easy trade for me. This is Blackberry vs. iPhone. It’s not perfect - I’d love to one-tap into Sport mode like I can on the CSL - but I find it to be a massive upgrade over the old systems.

It seems the F8x N55 and S55 spawned a generation of folks who crave a wheel-hopping, 1500RPM torque hit from their M cars. That’s a very different character from the linear E46 and E92 M cars, which also felt pretty normal when not going for it. The good news is you can actually have your cake and eat it with the 8-speed car; put it in Sport Plus and S3 and the car will eagerly leap from stoplight to stoplight like the animal you were probably hoping for. 6MT gives you that, too - you just have to work harder for it.

[MmmmmM2]

Again....Different people have different opinions....AND THAT'S OK!!

If you love your G87 that's great! If you love your F87 that's great! If you love your 1M that's great!

So Jason doesn't love the new M2 and has his own opinion. Who cares?

It's just kind of funny how some G87 owners just can't take it when people don't rave about their car.

Why is this such a big deal? He isn't the first and he won't be the last to not like it.

Plenty of lovers/haters of the G87. So is life!

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

The comfort-sport spectrum is wider on this car than the last, especially with the 6MT. Yes, it’s tame at normal driving intensity, but it’s a total beast when you rip it. Head to Alice’s, pick a direction, and drive it harder than you’ve been driving it around town.

I predict there will be some who give up on their 6MT cars before break-in purely based on the impression the car gives when driving at 5/10ths or whatever. That will be a mistake.

Try the ZF8 version before drawing your final conclusion on the G87. The shorter gearing makes the car’s more manic side incrementally more accessible.

Disagree on iDrive 8. As with most interfaces, familiarity is more important in the long run. There’s nothing unreasonable about having to spend an hour or three learning to use a UI bolted to a complex $60k machine. The payoff is worth it. Even if a few functions take an extra tap or two, I get a far more versatile system in return. Hard buttons in exchange for significantly more screen real estate; easy trade for me. This is Blackberry vs. iPhone. It’s not perfect - I’d love to one-tap into Sport mode like I can on the CSL - but I find it to be a massive upgrade over the old systems.

It seems the F8x N55 and S55 spawned a generation of folks who crave a wheel-hopping, 1500RPM torque hit from their M cars. That’s a very different character from the linear E46 and E92 M cars, which also felt pretty normal when not going for it. The good news is you can actually have your cake and eat it with the 8-speed car; put it in Sport Plus and S3 and the car will eagerly leap from stoplight to stoplight like the animal you were probably hoping for. 6MT gives you that, too - you just have to work harder for it.

he reviewed the ZF8 when he tested the M3 comp on youtube. he basically said he's not a fan of torque converters but it works well for the S58 and probably the trans he would pick. Said it pairs up with the S58's powerband better than the stick.

so he has experience with the S58 + ZF8 combo

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

If you love your G87 that's great! If you love your F87 that's great! If you love your 1M that's great!

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the most dangerous.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the worst on paper.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M is the one I miss the most.

The End.

[AlpineBoost]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

Again....Different people have different opinions....AND THAT'S OK!!

If you love your G87 that's great! If you love your F87 that's great! If you love your 1M that's great!

So Jason doesn't love the new M2 and has his own opinion. Who cares?

It's just kind of funny how some G87 owners just can't take it when people don't rave about their car.

Why is this such a big deal? He isn't the first and he won't be the last to not like it.

Plenty of lovers/haters of the G87. So is life!

I don't really see anyone making a big deal of it. Jason shared his thoughts and opinions and people are sharing theirs back. Some looking for additional clarification on things that sound a little inconsistent.

I get that he's driven other S58 powered cars and both transmissions, so maybe he doesn't feel the need to really even "drive" the G87. By his own admission, he hasn't yet. Sounds a little funny to me, but he's driven way more cars than I have and is a much better driver than I'll ever be so what do I know.

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the most dangerous.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the worst on paper.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M is the one I miss the most.

The End.

Many of the best car experiences do leverage some degree of “Stockholm syndrome” to create that bond.

As a Viper owner for the last 8 years, I totally know what you mean!

-Nick

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by npirnia

Many of the best car experiences do leverage some degree of “Stockholm syndrome” to create that bond.

As a Viper owner for the last 8 years, I totally know what you mean!

-Nick

I remember thinking my RX-7 (1996) was a beast until a friend took me out in his Viper (GTS I believe) and I thought we were toast more than a few times...lol

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the most dangerous.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M was by far the worst on paper.

Out of all the cars I've ever had the 1M is the one I miss the most.

The End.

I'm sure these words are true even if I have never driven one.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by npirnia

Many of the best car experiences do leverage some degree of “Stockholm syndrome” to create that bond.

As a Viper owner for the last 8 years, I totally know what you mean!

-Nick

After I test drove a Gen V Viper GTS at my local dealership back in 2015, I immediately listed my GTR for sale lol. Eye opening experience for me as to what a real sports car was. Made my 700hp GTR feel like a fast boring SUV.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by moodyhank82

For an enthusiast who wants to daily a fun manual car with practicality without braking the bank, other than 4 BW and maybe the Golf R, what else is really out there to even consider? 4BW has a cheap interior and questionable long-term resale. Golf R has an infotainment even more frustrating than ID8 plus it is on a fwd platform with an uninspiring 4 banger.

I think everything Jason said made total sense. He noted that the M2 can't be his daily driver, and he has dedicated track cars. Given his needs, the M2 isn't a good fit for him.

However, for people who DO need a daily driver, and can't have a separate track car, you are right. Options are indeed slim, especially if you want a new car (with warranty) and an MT. Jason can't help us with that.

Practical-ish 4 seater RWD MT sports cars, still in production, for < $70K: M2, RS3 (slight cheat, AWD+DCT), CLA 45, Mustang GT/DH, Camaro (but it's gone next year), CT4-V BW. No slam dunk winner, each car has strengths and weaknesses.

If you are willing to give up the RWD, the GR Corolla looks to be a hoot.

[wavyyyy]

Back to say again: iD8 sucks. There's a lag with climate control, you have to press the M Mode Button and tap on the screen instead of just pressing the M Mode button like before, to turn on MDM with your M button you have to wait 2 seconds before hitting confirm. It just straight up sucks.

[02M3ForMe]

Just took out the ZF8 for a quick errand - anyone picking it is in for a treat. Has any reviewer given this version anything less than a great review?

Will take out the 6MT later for fun to compare again and sanity check my thoughts.