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      05-17-2023, 04:57 PM   #67
Humdizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
Just took out the ZF8 for a quick errand - anyone picking it is in for a treat. Has any reviewer given this version anything less than a great review?

Will take out the 6MT later for fun to compare again and sanity check my thoughts.
just to name a few:

autotrader (g80 comp review)
throttle house (G82 comp)
top gear (g82 CSL review)

all said the zf8 isn't as good as the dct.
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      05-17-2023, 05:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
just to name a few:

autotrader (g80 comp review)
throttle house (G82 comp)
top gear (g82 CSL review)

all said the zf8 isn't as good as the dct.
How about G87 auto version overall verdict? Anyone give it a bad or even average review?
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      05-17-2023, 05:14 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
How about G87 auto version overall verdict? Anyone give it a bad or even average review?
As a current DCT owner, I'm just gonna say.....


Nope, not gonna say it.
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      05-17-2023, 05:22 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by MmmmmM2 View Post
As a current DCT owner, I'm just gonna say.....


Nope, not gonna say it.
Yeah...you made the right decision. (My e92 is DCT)
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      05-17-2023, 05:23 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
How about G87 auto version overall verdict? Anyone give it a bad or even average review?
i dont think there is any reason to believe its different from the G80 ? but maybe it is. I think the issue was most enthusiast channels picked the manual on the press launch as it was the 'enthusiast' spec. And then at the end they got the zf8 for only a few minutes. most said the zf8 was better fit for the s58 than the manual.

maybe soon we'll get a direct head to head video with the old M2C/ CS or RS3 to see what its like compared to DCT.
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      05-17-2023, 10:02 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Squidget View Post
If you are willing to give up the RWD, the GR Corolla looks to be a hoot.
I flipped two GR Corollas a few months back. They are definitely fun and capable for the price but the interior is very basic, on a different (lower) league than any G8X BMW…
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      05-17-2023, 10:45 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe View Post
How about G87 auto version overall verdict? Anyone give it a bad or even average review?
For those that value stats the auto is likely the better choice.

Car and Driver tested the manual and found it to be slower than F87 Comp. The Auto however is almost line ball with F87CS!

Half a second difference over the quarter from manual to auto G87.

“Unfortunately, the M2’s changes bring an additional 184 pounds of mass compared with the old Competition model. Our 3745-pound test car weighed more than an M4 equipped with a manual transmission and carbon-ceramic brakes, and it was 0.1 second slower to 60 mph than the M4 or old M2 Comp, posting a 3.9-second time. In terms of top-gear acceleration from 30 and 50 mph, where engine responsiveness is key, the gap between the M2 and its predecessor is even more pronounced. Only at triple-digit speeds does the new car flex its stronger legs: While its 12.2-second quarter-mile pass may be just a tenth quicker than before, its 118-mph trap speed is 4 mph faster. The automatic version we tested was unsurprisingly quicker, sprinting to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds and covering the quarter-mile in 11.7 seconds at 122 mph, running wheel to wheel with the 503-hp M3 Competition.”
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      05-18-2023, 07:11 AM   #74
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Reviewers always have varying opinions on new cars. I own one and love it. It does exactly what I want it to do (and that is make me smile every day).

When I was a child my father taught me "opinions are like a$$holes. everyone has one and most of them stink." Do with that information what you will.
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      05-18-2023, 07:27 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
For those that value stats the auto is likely the better choice.

Car and Driver tested the manual and found it to be slower than F87 Comp. The Auto however is almost line ball with F87CS!

Half a second difference over the quarter from manual to auto G87.

“Unfortunately, the M2’s changes bring an additional 184 pounds of mass compared with the old Competition model. Our 3745-pound test car weighed more than an M4 equipped with a manual transmission and carbon-ceramic brakes, and it was 0.1 second slower to 60 mph than the M4 or old M2 Comp, posting a 3.9-second time. In terms of top-gear acceleration from 30 and 50 mph, where engine responsiveness is key, the gap between the M2 and its predecessor is even more pronounced. Only at triple-digit speeds does the new car flex its stronger legs: While its 12.2-second quarter-mile pass may be just a tenth quicker than before, its 118-mph trap speed is 4 mph faster. The automatic version we tested was unsurprisingly quicker, sprinting to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds and covering the quarter-mile in 11.7 seconds at 122 mph, running wheel to wheel with the 503-hp M3 Competition.”
Can you link where you are seeing this? I’ve looked all over C&D and can’t find this. The C&D testing I’ve found for their best 0-60 time on a manual F87 M2C is 3.9 sec (which would be the same) and 1/4 is 12.4 sec.
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      05-18-2023, 08:27 AM   #76
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I’ve stopped reading Camisa ever since … well … last week, when he didn’t publish a conclusion that aligned with my G87 bias

How dare this dude choose the slower, outgoing model
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      05-18-2023, 09:02 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bromudez View Post
I’ve stopped reading Camisa ever since … well … last week, when he didn’t publish a conclusion that aligned with my G87 bias

How dare this dude choose the slower, outgoing model
Man stfu lol, we all know he’s always gonna pick the older and slower cars. He may hate modern cars but not everyone does so his opinion on the G87 should taken with a massive grain of salt knowing this.
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      05-18-2023, 09:42 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bromudez View Post
I’ve stopped reading Camisa ever since … well … last week, when he didn’t publish a conclusion that aligned with my G87 bias

How dare this dude choose the slower, outgoing model
.
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      05-18-2023, 10:01 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davil View Post
iPhone user experience is way better. Totally agree. However, it was designed to require full engagement. Down here it’s a $1000 fine if you use your iPhone while driving for precisely that reason. In one of the states (Victoria), first year drivers have to pull over to operate an in vehicle touch screen. I think we will see some change with the current style of vehicle UI in the future.
It also uses one jumbo "screen" (piece of glass) which locks you into a lot of design decisions about screen placement that just using two screens wouldn't. All just so you can have a little piece of connecting glass behind the steering wheel where you can never see it.

I don't need my instrument cluster to be at the same depth as my touch screen. One of those I never touch and it would be nice to have it be shaded/set a little further back.

Sorry, for going off topic, I just hate that this has become a thing across a bunch of cars/brands.
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      05-18-2023, 10:07 AM   #80
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I love how this forum gets upset if anyone says anything other than complete praise for whatever BMW model they're talking about. Matt from Obsessed Garage got hounded for saying the G80 M3 he had was too digital and that he hated it and was selling it because it just wasn't doing it for him. Jason here says much of the same - its an isolated experience, the ride is bad, id8 sucks, and it lost much of the charm the M2 was known for in exchange for a lot of the technical prowess the M3/4 have.

Anyone who has driven a 718 Cayman, a Miata, a GR86, or a 911 and compare it to a G80 can tell Jason isn't pulling this out of his ass. There's a certain amount of isolated feel the latest CLAR platform BMWs have that take away a lot of the fun factor compared to those cars listed. If that doesn't bother you, great, you're getting a fantastic car with a tremendous amount of performance capabilities and a nice, luxury experience inside. If you pay attention to Jason's other reviews, he's all about the driving experience, which is a hard to qualify metric. It's the human experience quotient he is excited about - the steering feel, shifter feel, the rush of excitement from the engine sound and vibrations it provides etc. It's not just Jason, look up youtube videos of Chris Harris talking about the new Civic Type R - a much slower car than the G87 and how much he sings its praises for the experience and fun factor it provides. Fun and speed are related to a point, but on the street the fun factor is more important for many vs. sheer performance numbers and speed.

I don't think Jason's personal fleet of fun shitboxes shows an inherent bias here. The man has driven thousands of press cars spanning decades and when you have a new press car every week, you don't actually need your own modern car, you can collect all sorts of weird project cars and have fun with them. His reviews for pretty much every modern vehicle are genuine and honest.

Vehicle specific forums have fallen into the same tribalism we see in politics, sports etc. Hop on Rennlist and the Porsche owners are sniffing their own farts and look down on other brands while debating the merits of Speed Yellow stitching over Racing Yellow stitching. Swing on by to Corvette Forums and they're posting about how good the C8 is in their matching leather jackets. Here, people, including those that have never even sat in or driven the model they're talking about, are ready to torch top tier automotive content creators like Cammisa and Throttle House because they said mean things about the latest BMW.
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      05-18-2023, 10:28 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyBeagle View Post
I love how this forum gets upset if anyone says anything other than complete praise for whatever BMW model they're talking about. Matt from Obsessed Garage got hounded for saying the G80 M3 he had was too digital and that he hated it and was selling it because it just wasn't doing it for him. Jason here says much of the same - its an isolated experience, the ride is bad, id8 sucks, and it lost much of the charm the M2 was known for in exchange for a lot of the technical prowess the M3/4 have.

Anyone who has driven a 718 Cayman, a Miata, a GR86, or a 911 and compare it to a G80 can tell Jason isn't pulling this out of his ass. There's a certain amount of isolated feel the latest CLAR platform BMWs have that take away a lot of the fun factor compared to those cars listed. If that doesn't bother you, great, you're getting a fantastic car with a tremendous amount of performance capabilities and a nice, luxury experience inside. If you pay attention to Jason's other reviews, he's all about the driving experience, which is a hard to qualify metric. It's the human experience quotient he is excited about - the steering feel, shifter feel, the rush of excitement from the engine sound and vibrations it provides etc. It's not just Jason, look up youtube videos of Chris Harris talking about the new Civic Type R - a much slower car than the G87 and how much he sings its praises for the experience and fun factor it provides. Fun and speed are related to a point, but on the street the fun factor is more important for many vs. sheer performance numbers and speed.

I don't think Jason's personal fleet of fun shitboxes shows an inherent bias here. The man has driven thousands of press cars spanning decades and when you have a new press car every week, you don't actually need your own modern car, you can collect all sorts of weird project cars and have fun with them. His reviews for pretty much every modern vehicle are genuine and honest.

Vehicle specific forums have fallen into the same tribalism we see in politics, sports etc. Hop on Rennlist and the Porsche owners are sniffing their own farts and look down on other brands while debating the merits of Speed Yellow stitching over Racing Yellow stitching. Swing on by to Corvette Forums and they're posting about how good the C8 is in their matching leather jackets. Here, people, including those that have never even sat in or driven the model they're talking about, are ready to torch top tier automotive content creators like Cammisa and Throttle House because they said mean things about the latest BMW.
I can't get over the first paragraph - the ride is bad?! Haha

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's Cammisa's myopic view that is so undigestible, and rightly critiqued. For the exact reasons you stated, his opinion really doesn't mean jack for the average guy looking for a new car with a warranty because he has family and a job. His stance is geared toward retired dudes, or exceedingly rich dudes who have 10 car garages.

It's just plain out of touch. And this is why people who agree with my take read and take to heart reviews from Automotive Journalists like Motortrend, Motorweek, CarandDriver, etc. They still maintain some "Everyman" view that helps to put relatable context behind the experience.

I wonder how reliable Jason's shitboxes are? Who has the time to get their car serviced every month times 10 cars? Or wonder if it'll even start 1hr before a meeting across town? Here's the answer, less than 1%.

Anyway, yeah, forums baby. Love it.
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      05-18-2023, 11:10 AM   #82
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Y’all are insane. You’re this mad because a journalist didn’t like your car. Makes no sense to me.
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      05-18-2023, 12:06 PM   #83
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Here's a thought. When Cammisa said the F87 had some je nais se quois that was missing from the rest of the M lineup, the forum was in total agreement with that review. Now because Cammisa isn't a fan of the G87, his opinion is garbage?

If you agree that the G-series cars look and feel significantly different from the F-series, surely you can be a mature adult and agree that some people won't like those changes without attacking their credibility?

The F87C is plenty modern, and Cammisa still liked it. It's disingenuous to say that Cammisa is incapable of giving a good review of a modern car because his personal collection is full of oldies.
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      05-18-2023, 01:47 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag View Post
You've previously mentioned that the MT didn't have the advertised torque below ~3.5K. If you could do it again, would you have gotten the AT instead?
Maybe. Still haven't decided, I would have loved to own both but only customizable, which they won't allow. TBH I see myself buying a Porsche before BMW for that reason when I snap out of my madness and buy another sports car. Idk, my son LOVED the M3. He actually cried when it left.

Wait I have an answer, yes, auto.

If I could do it all over again I would have had kids 10yrs sooner, bought a house with four car garage, and bet on Buster Douglas. But whatever.
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      05-18-2023, 07:05 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by 2manycars View Post
Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

First of all, my personal car collection really doesn't have a bearing on reviewing new cars. I see yours'es points, but I'm not paid to review cars whether I like them personally. For the record, I hate a lot of cars that I give screamingly positive reviews for — and vice-versa. The question I answer is "does this car does what it says it will do on the box?" not "does Jason like it?"

I live in the SF Bay Area, and specifically in an area where roads are absolutely tiny and parking spots are even smaller. My e-Golf is too big to fit in half the parking spots here, so tiny cars work.

On the FWD EV: remember that I test cars for a living, which means I typically have a test car all the time. I don't actually need a daily-driver, but I do like to have a dinghy: something small that I can park in the city, or drive places where I wouldn't want to be in somebody else's $200k attention-getting brand-new car.

I have 9 other cars that require oil changes and maintenance, so an EV was an obvious choice — especially with HOV-lane access. And there was no way I was going to buy a penalty-box like a Bolt or a Leaf or even an i3.

The e-Golf is a GTI without turbo lag. It generates 1.07 g of ass-out skidpad grip thanks to sticky PS4Ses and a big 034 Motorsport rear bar. It leaves a GTI for dead in traffic, and is even quicker over bumpy-as-hell 1st and 2nd-gear twisties. Plus, it seats 5 or hauls refrigerators in a small footprint. No-brainer once you understand that.

Anyway, onto the G87.

I don't hate it. Dynamically it's a step forward. I don't think it's faster than the F87, but it puts power down much better. Still does the rear-end wiggle that we first felt in the E90 335i and E82 135i, but it doesn't break loose.

The UX is a nightmare. Sure you can get used to it, just like you can get used to Tinnitus. Doesn't make it good.

I'm really glad the M2 exists, so there's that. If I bought one, I'd probably enjoy it. But I have to point out that the last car did the "M2 Thing" better. It was (IMO) way better to look at, and it was unquestionably more fun to drive on a daily basis.

Was it a riot? No.

But it was fizzy and alive in a way that most modern BMWs aren't. Great engine, good steering, the right(ish) size, etc. It was a solid "good" as a daily... but became an unmitigated riot when you drove it at the limit, especially on a trac. (Like the Harris video pointed out.)

I'm sure the G87 will be just as good — if not better — when you're hooning it sideways. I didn't. I just... drove it. Around town, on some back roads, to the office. And there, it just feels like a... car.

A car with sand in the dampers, with great seats (despite the stupid scrotum-rest), with a decent manual, okay steering, meh visibility, a back seat I can't sit upright in, and a bunch of digital displays designed by blind people with no fingers who've never driven a car. Lane-keep that yanks the wheel right the F out of your hand (I was told by a very angry BMW that it's possible to turn this off permanently using a Profile), auto-blip that you have to turn off every time (see previous parenthesis), an engine that sounds just okay inside the car (it's absent at low revs, then harsh at the top of the tach), and an overall isolated experience (I was always going 15 mph quicker than I thought.)

Is it bad? Of course not. But pound for pound, in normal use, I think the old M2 did a better job at providing a special experience.

And that's why I brought up the GR86/BRZ. I've seen the "they're nothing special" comments but I couldn't disagree more. Measured by the numbers, they're indeed nothing special. But as an experience, they're unmatched.

If BMW's engineers spent time with cars like those — or CTRs, or even Porsche 911s — maybe they'd stop slapping "Ultimate Driving Machine" taglines on massively overweight luxury cars. The company is just conflicted — it wants to be a luxury brand, but keeps promising us that the experience will be there. It's just... not.

And the last M2 was the last BMW that had a personality at real-world speeds. Sadly, it, too, has become and M4. Super capable — kudos on that engineering and all, but... can we just have a little fun please?
You’re about to make a bunch of BMW fan boys/girls super emotional! To too many of them, if it’s a BMW, it’s got to be good! BMW has gotten quite good at taking something good and making it worse for the sake of ‘progress.’ Somehow, they took a fun, spunky right sized car and made it bigger (yet smaller on the inside - how does that work?!), heavier, worse looking (subjective) and more difficult to use because iDrive 8 and more sterile personality wise. Yet, because it’s a BMW, it’s got to be good, right?

People should should spend their money on what they want. I just can’t help but laugh a bit on how defensive these folks get when you say something they don’t like. Worse, how these folks go from loving car reviewers to hating them just because they won’t validate your car choice (see Throttle House). I guess folks really need that validation to justify what they spend their money on:
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      05-18-2023, 08:39 PM   #86
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BOO to over-generalization.

Not everyone in the forum is a homer with blinders on.

Saying stuff like "the forum does X" ignores that the forum has a ton of debate and arguing, it's not an echo chamber of agreement by any means. Generalizing people is bad, m'kay?

I bought a G87. But I also nodded to Jason and SavageGeese's reviews. They had many valid critiques. I can, in fact, like a car but still understand why others don't like it. I am capable of rational thought.

So I'd prefer to not be painted with any broad brushes, thank you very much.

P.S. TH's review WAS pretty bad. Not because they didn't like the M2, but because their methodology was misleading.
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      05-18-2023, 09:25 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidget View Post
Not everyone in the forum is a homer with blinders on.
Right, not to generalize but it seems to me that most current G87 owners or people showing real interest in owning one aren't the type to defend the brand at all costs. A lot of us didn't like the design choices for the M3/M4 and the M2 design is actually bringing in people new to the brand. I never thought I'd own another BMW after just 1 but the G87 seems that special to me and we've only seen the base model so far.

I actually find a lot of positive in what Jason is saying for what I want in a car that will be primarily used as a daily driver. The crap I don't like about the M2 probably just takes some getting used to, changed permanently in the UI, coded out, etc. Right now I split daily duty between a 335i and a Veloster N. One is harsh, as fast as you'll ever need for the street but 15 years old, while the other is brand new and a hoot but not near fast enough. I want a better balance between the two cars. I have a long commute (80+ mins each way on paper) and am always trying to get from A to B as fast as possible, especially heading to work. I take a completely different route home since back roads are actually quicker that time of day where I'm sure I'll find the M2 to be plenty fun.
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      05-18-2023, 10:14 PM   #88
Davil
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Originally Posted by StickyPickle View Post
Can you link where you are seeing this? I’ve looked all over C&D and can’t find this. The C&D testing I’ve found for their best 0-60 time on a manual F87 M2C is 3.9 sec (which would be the same) and 1/4 is 12.4 sec.
https://apple.news/AW_TZ_-aGQdS8D3axpWtqTQ
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