[Paul@Austin]

There have been a lot of roomers circulating on the 325 turning into the 328 and the 330 to 335 in September of this year. The last tread to mention the 328 is over a month old.

I was going to buy a 325 in the summer, but I made the mistake of test driving the 330. Now the 325 feels way under powered but I don’t want to drop $42K after options if the 328i comes out at the end of the summer (purportedly the same power as the 330 for $5K less).

Does anyone have any new news on the 328i??

[oilbelcher]

This would be the smart marketing move by BMW, and bring the value equation of performance vs. price in check. Help thwart the competition off for a while too.

[stressdoc]

Great question. Here's hoping someone will give us some clues. I am in the same boat, waiting to see what the options for 2007 will be. If the 335 is a turbo and the price reasonable, then I will have to go for that. If the 335 price is unreasonable, and a 328 rwd E91 is available, then I would go that route. My guess is that the key to this issue is the status of the DI engines for the NA market.

If nothing interesting is happening and you need a new car this summer, consider what a good value a Euro delivery 330 with few options is.

[E90Fleet]

No news yet, only conflicting reports from europe and USA

BMW should announce the coupe any day now before the Geneva show and show us what engines Europe will have.

Just a little wait after that to see what the USA is doing

[Paul@Austin]

Originally Posted by E90Fleet

No news yet, only conflicting reports from europe and USA

BMW should announce the coupe any day now before the Geneva show and show us what engines Europe will have.

Just a little wait after that to see what the USA is doing

When is the Geneva show?

[Hunter399]

I think it is in the first part of March

[WooBah]

Does anyone really think they would undercut the current 330i by $5,000 with a 328i that has identical specs? I can't believe BMW would do that to their customer base. I really believe that BMW will go 325, 330, 335, M3, now that is a nice lineup, covers all bases.

If they do eliminate the 330i, if you are financially able to hold on to your car, and you can maintain the car, it would be worth some money down the road. But, again, I don't see BMW kicking sand in the loyal customers faces that bought 330i's for a premium price. It would be disloyal.

[oilbelcher]

Since I'm living in Geneva now, I definitely going this year. can't wait, and will report back. Geneva is first class compared to the chicago show I went to every year. Since I purchased a BMW locally in Geneva last year, they give a VIP pass to owners at the show, allowing unlimited alcohol and other drinks, with a birds-eye view of the show. first class, but you expect that in an expensive yuppy city likie this.

[E90Fleet]

Originally Posted by oilbelcher

Since I'm living in Geneva now, I definitely going this year. can't wait, and will report back. Geneva is first class compared to the chicago show I went to every year. Since I purchased a BMW locally in Geneva last year, they give a VIP pass to owners at the show, allowing unlimited alcohol and other drinks, with a birds-eye view of the show. first class, but you expect that in an expensive yuppy city likie this.

Please take lots of pictures and post them on the forum

[fragra]

Originally Posted by WooBah

But, again, I don't see BMW kicking sand in the loyal customers faces that bought 330i's for a premium price. It would be disloyal.

Posters on other threads/boards have mentioned (speculated?) 240 hp for the 328, likely precisely because of that.

[MTL-E90]

Originally Posted by WooBah

Does anyone really think they would undercut the current 330i by $5,000 with a 328i that has identical specs? I can't believe BMW would do that to their customer base. I really believe that BMW will go 325, 330, 335, M3, now that is a nice lineup, covers all bases.

If they do eliminate the 330i, if you are financially able to hold on to your car, and you can maintain the car, it would be worth some money down the road. But, again, I don't see BMW kicking sand in the loyal customers faces that bought 330i's for a premium price. It would be disloyal.

That's exactly what I think they will do. For Canada , 323 , 325 , 330 and the new addition of the 335 to compete with the new infinity.
I too don't see BMW changing up there current line, more or less just adding a new addition or two.


Nick

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by WooBah

Does anyone really think they would undercut the current 330i by $5,000 with a 328i that has identical specs? I can't believe BMW would do that to their customer base.

Sure they would.

Here's a little history lesson for anybody who thinks that BMW won't sell a new car with a lot more power for the same (or nearly the same) price as a lesser powered model that was sold the year before: E46 328i buyers got shafted badly - remember when the 330i came out with a 30 hp increase with virtually no price increase?

In 1999 and 2000, the 328i, rated at 193 hp, was listed for $33,400.
In 2001, BMW released the 330i - with a gain of 32 hp - for $33,990. A paltry $590 increase. The 328i was dropped while the 323i became the 325i (which is what it should have been called in the first place), and BMW played with the rated numbers a bit, but in reality there was no significant change in power or performance from one model to the next.

In 1997, BMW's base model coupe was the 318is at $27,700.
One year later, the 323is with a six cylinder engine and large boost in power (on paper, 30 hp and 48 ft-lbs tq) sold for $28,700. A mere $1000 increase. The 323is was so much faster than the 318, in fact, that it was almost as fast as the top model 328, which was then selling at a $6000 premium.

You can bet that more than one 328 buyer in 1996 or 1997 wished they had waited for the 323 and saved themselves thousands. Nevermind the 318is buyers who suddenly found that a new model with a significant boost in power was now selling for just $1000 more than what they paid.

How about M coupe/roadster buyers in 1999 and 2000? That car had the 240 hp S52...for 2001, a slightly detuned 315 hp S54 (75 hp gain!) was fitted into the same car with a mere $3000 increase...and that's in a niche market car (which doesn't suffer from the same price elasticity that more mainstream cars like the basic 3 series do).

Most recently, the Z4 roadster. The 2006 Z4 roadster, which began production this month, is rated at 215 and 255 hp for the 3.0i and 3.0si models, respectively (same N52 engine as the 2006 E90). The M54 powered 2005 models were rated at 184 hp and 225 hp. In both cases we can see about a 30 hp increase. Price increases? $800 for the lower model and $300 for the top model. Not much.

What about the E46 -> E90 changeover? The new 325 is about as fast as the old 330. Is that not "kicking sand" in the face of E46 330 buyers? What about the new Z4 3.0i roadster with 215 hp for $6000 less than the 225 hp version sold for?

The most important part to note is that in all of these cases, none of the obsolete models suffered the doomsday depreciation that was frequently predicted. Some people are afraid that a 335i (or even a 328i) could destroy the residuals or resale of their 330i - if history repeats as it usually does, I wouldn't count on that!

Bottom line: some people here are predicting a $5000+ increase for the 335i. For 50 hp in today's market? Unless BMW is really set on using the 335i as a bridge (though not a very good one, still being 100+ hp shy of the new M3), I just don't see it. History has shown that dropping the 330i entirely in favor of the 335i is completely plausible!

Though they have a large CPO program and hold the titles to a large number of leased vehicles, BMW is ultimately in the business of selling NEW cars - and they wouldn't be continuously successful if they were retroactive to the point of handicapping new car lines in order to protect lease residuals and the egos of previous buyers. Progress is a part of life. I just bought a 2005 SL500 with the old 302 hp SOHC V8 last May. At the end of this summer - little more than a year later - Mercedes-Benz is going to be selling the same car with the 388 hp DOHC engine from the S550 for a little to no price increase. Am I upset? No, that's life, it happens. My car isn't suddenly going to be worth nothing, either.

The big question for the US market is whether or not BMWNA sees the G35 (or more importantly, the upcoming refreshed G35/G37) and IS350 as legitimate long term threats. They probably do, or at least might - after all, the 330i was developed to counter the threat of the IS300 as well as any future threats that might arise during the course of E46 production. It was a very successful venture - flagging 328 sales were propped up by the brisk selling 330 which continued to sell well for several more years. BMW probably owes much of the long term success of the E46 to their desire to frequently update and upgrade the model and its engines. They should and probably will do the exact same with the E90, even as soon as this coming 2007 model year.

Do remember that certain competitor's cars (G35/IS350 for instance) aren't sold in Europe (or even in many parts of Asia) and that part of the market is small to begin with due to displacement taxes, insurance, and fuel costs. The US market is a whole different ball game.

If they do eliminate the 330i, if you are financially able to hold on to your car, and you can maintain the car, it would be worth some money down the road. But, again, I don't see BMW kicking sand in the loyal customers faces that bought 330i's for a premium price. It would be disloyal.

Loyal customers? What about 328 buyers in 2000? 318 buyers in 1997? Z4 buyers in 2005? I'm willing to bet that most of them ended up buying a new BMW somewhere down the proverbial road - and it was probably the model that replaced the one they'd had before.

Based on what I see here, most E90 buyers thus far are first time BMW buyers. BMW really wants to entice their enthusiast base - like the E46 holdouts with their 330i ZHPs and M3s - into trading into an E90 instead of going with the competition or holding onto their E46. The 335i is the car they'll probably need to do that...and it will probably need to be priced somewhat similarly to the current 330 to be successful.

**ALL OF THAT SAID** I doubt the 325 will undergo major changes in terms of power or other amenities for 2007. If BMW does rebadge it and boost the power, the power increase will likely be minimal - 20-25 hp or less. I don't think they'll match the old 330's power figures, at least on paper. After all, the 325 model is already well positioned in the marketplace in terms of power and price - unlike the high priced 330 model (which has to go up against heavy hitters like the IS350, G35 and C350), it matches or beats the IS250, A4 2.0T, TSX and C230/C280 in the overall performance/value equation.

[leosong11]

Nice, informative post akhbaat!

[Paul@Austin]

WOW!! Thanks for info. I think BMW has no choice to drop the 328 and 335 in the same price range as the 325 and 330. The Japanese car companies are bringing some serious competition to the luxury sports sedan. I could not believe the huge difference in horsepower when I test drove the IS350 (The reason I am not buying one is the interior reminds me of an upgraded Camry).

[RichReg]

There is still the possibility that BMW maintains 3 models here instead.
Here's why:

1) The E90 is just about the same size now as was the E39. The E39 was intentionally expanded into 3 different models (525, 530 & 540) way back in 2001 for what purpose?(see #2)

2) VOLUME. Something that the E90 is now experiencing versus the E46......BMW is on track to selling way more of these than the E46 version.

3) Lastly, there are always those that are willing to pay extra for more power. All one has to do is look at the price of a 545 or 550. By fishing those customers out of the water, BMW could sell a low volume of 335s at a fairly high premium....the SAME way they sold the E46 ZHP. These customers don't want G37s or G38s or IS450s or whatever.....they are that group of loyal customers that have extra cash and will not get anything else EXCEPT a BMW.

BMW could also lower their prices on the 325 & 330 to achieve even higher volume on those models; not by lowering the base price, but by adding more standard equipment as they've been known to do from time to time. Once again, this is all speculation, but we will certainly see very soon.

[stressdoc]

I personally would be quite happy to see a ZHP / 335, if the cost is reasonable. I also hope we (NA) get the 335si option, again with a reasonable price tag.

[3aficionado]

Great post akhbhaat.

I think we will have our answers sometime after Geneva. My guess is Geneva will have details about the new engine (already officially released turbos existence) and we will get a look at the new coupe design. But I don't think BMW will give info on what the coupe line will be in Geneva. People know that whatever they do with the coupe will probably follow in the sedan. So as not to scare off 325/330 purchasers between Geneva and September BMW will not release many details at Geneva. At most I expect BMW will let us know there will be a 335 coupe and leave it up to us to speculate if the 335 will be in a sedan (I think it will) and whether the 335 will be an addition or replacement to the current line. I also don't think they will release details about whether the engine will make it to the states. This way BMW can judge the reaction of the US consumer when the engine is fully unveiled at Geneva and decide if the turbo makes the trip across the pond (I think it will).

[3aficionado]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I personally would be quite happy to see a ZHP / 335, if the cost is reasonable. I also hope we (NA) get the 335si option, again with a reasonable price tag.

What would a 335si be? What do you think they would do for a ZHP 335?

[JazzEKline]

What I would like to see in the US would be:

323
328
335
M

Where the power of the 323 does not exceeds that of a 325 and the power of the 328 does not exceed a 330. It makes perfect sense and I know it is possible.

[stressdoc]

The 335si purportedly includes the upgraded N54 (~330 bhp) and possibly the ZSG tranny and an M-pack equivalent. To die for, if it materializes. A mid-year tidbit following the initial sales surge of the 335i.

My reference to a ZHP 335 is in context of Richreg's post, with the general idea of the 335 being equivalent in marketing position to the E46 ZHP, i.e., as a distinct and special model, with the 330 continuing in the 'normal,' more luxury-oriented niche. Fuzzy use of acronyms on my part.

[Paul@Austin]

Originally Posted by JazzEKline

What I would like to see in the US would be:

323
328
335
M

Where the power of the 323 does not exceeds that of a 325 and the power of the 328 does not exceed a 330. It makes perfect sense and I know it is possible.

For what it’s worth, I think you may be right. This would make the most sense.

[akhbhaat]

Originally Posted by RichReg

There is still the possibility that BMW maintains 3 models here instead.
Here's why:

1) The E90 is just about the same size now as was the E39. The E39 was intentionally expanded into 3 different models (525, 530 & 540) way back in 2001 for what purpose?(see #2)

2) VOLUME. Something that the E90 is now experiencing versus the E46......BMW is on track to selling way more of these than the E46 version.

BMW could also lower their prices on the 325 & 330 to achieve even higher volume on those models; not by lowering the base price, but by adding more standard equipment as they've been known to do from time to time. Once again, this is all speculation, but we will certainly see very soon.

In my opinion, what BMW did with the E39 actually makes a strong case for the introduction of a new entry-level E90, such as a 323i, rather than tell us what BMW might do to the rest of the lineup.

Consider this: the entry-level E39 model for 1997-2000 was the 528i (one of which a good friend of mine owns - in 5 speed manual, no less - great car), which was priced at $38,900 for all four model years. It's very rare for a model to go four years without a price increase of any kind - though the 528i was practically underchanged during that span, merely gaining DSC (over ASC+T) in 2000 and the E46's M52TU (double VANOS) for 1999 - cosmetic improvements and other changes didn't come until 2001.

When the E39 was revised for 2001, the line was expanded to three models and new engines were introduced. The 525i was priced at $35,400 - $3500 less than the 528i - and the 530i was priced at $39,400 - $500 more than the 528i (and the obvious successor to that model). There was still a $12,000 gap between the 530 and the 540 and an even bigger gap between the 540 and the M5.

With this trend in mind, it would seem likely for BMW to introduce a new entry level E90; something along the lines of a 323i with ~180 hp and a $28,000 base price tag. Remember the high price elasticity of the automobile market - if you want to improve you volume, you must introduce a new model downmarket, not upmarket. Simply adding more models at a higher price is not going to buoy sales much. You'll catch a couple fringe buyers, at best.

Another thing to consider: if BMWNA's marketing history is any indication, it is highly unlikely that the base price of the 335i sedan will match, let alone exceed the base price of the entry level 5 series (remember that part of the cachet of the 5 series, regardless of engine, is its general status superiority over the 3 in the BMW lineup). The 525i currently lists for $42,500, so that would make for a logical price ceiling for the 335i, though it's safe to figure that BMW would leave a $1000-2000 cushion, which puts a theoretical (though not definite) limit of about $41,500 on the car (assuming the 5 goes up a bit in price for 2007). If this becomes the case, the 330i would almost have to go down in price a thousand or two to reduce the crowding in that price segment...or, of course, BMW replaces the 330i with the 335i.

Something else to consider is the 1 series. It's widely reported that the US will be getting the 1 series, sooner or later. It's also widely reported that due to the past failure of upscale hatchback models in the US market (such as MB's C-coupe and BMW's own 318ti), the odds of us getting the five door hatchback 1 series are very low. Of course, a sedan model of this car would be redundant with the five door hatch, so the possibility of a sedan 1 series are likewise slim. It is known that there will be coupe and cabrio versions - but probably no sedan, and for the US market, no hatch.

So, with the 1 series coming in as the new entry level line, but no sedan variant, BMW would almost have to introduce a cheaper 3er sedan to fill that gap. That car could be the 323i. Meanwhile, the 3er coupe will probably be moved upmarket.