Some new info on the M3

[JK42]

By the way, I've driven a DSG A3 sportback on a track too, and I got the DSG fooled several times in shift situations, which caused the DSG to crap out. It's only a question of wanting to fool it. But if you drive predictably, 99.99% of the time it works great. Too bad it's limited to about 300Nm of torque, so it's not an issue with true performance cars. Now, BMW's own dual-clutch gearbox will be able to handle about 600Nm so it should be very usable. And a SMG-DSG type combo for the M cars which it looks like the new gearbox will be, should offer the best of both worlds. As long as it's not a slushbox, I'm fine with it.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Agreed. If it is a slushbox, I will not rest until its thrown out.

[JK42]

Funny thing though now that alternative techniques are starting to be perfect, even Slushboxes are starting to be decent. The latest automatic on the E92 335i is the fastest BMW automatic box ever, with 100ms change times with the manual pads on the steering wheel (if you have that option.) And it is pretty good to drive.. I drove one for a weekend, and even though I hate slushboxes, it was very decent. It kinda fit the whole feel of the 335i which was one of a "too large, old lazy man's car". You won't be doing 360 turns or anything other fun on it, that's for sure. But you won't with a manual either (or maybe barely), cause you don't have LSD on it.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Last E92 M3]

Originally Posted by JK42

Funny thing though now that alternative techniques are starting to be perfect, even Slushboxes are starting to be decent. The latest automatic on the E92 335i is the fastest BMW automatic box ever, with 100ms change times with the manual pads on the steering wheel (if you have that option.) And it is pretty good to drive.. I drove one for a weekend, and even though I hate slushboxes, it was very decent. It kinda fit the whole feel of the 335i which was one of a "too large, old lazy man's car". You won't be doing 360 turns or anything other fun on it, that's for sure. But you won't with a manual either (or maybe barely), cause you don't have LSD on it.

Best regards,

Jussi

i will be testdriving that in about a week if i am lucked.
i will see how it goes
btw, thats pretty fast...100ms!

[JK42]

Originally Posted by Last E92 M3

i will be testdriving that in about a week if i am lucked.
i will see how it goes
btw, thats pretty fast...100ms!

Remember, that only applies for the automatic box on the 335i. The 330i and 325i (here in Europe) and I believe the 328i in the US have a slower, older Getrag slushbox (or was it ZF... the fast one is ZF at least.)

Best regards,

Jussi

[Romo]

A while ago, I drove a 335i automatic, must say; pretty impressive automatic, it suits the car as a whole verry well IMO. Now I`am not a fan for an automatic, but still this one was the best that I have ever driven.

[replicat]

d2 I would like to drive the 335i automatic too. I have heard from a buddy of mine who is a tech for BMW, that it is impressive as well. They are all sold out nearby me though, even the testers have been sold. That car is selling like crazy.

But I have only see two on the roads.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by replicat

d2 I would like to drive the 335i automatic too. I have heard from a buddy of mine who is a tech for BMW, that it is impressive as well. They are all sold out nearby me though, even the testers have been sold. That car is selling like crazy.

But I have only see two on the roads.

Impressive in the sense that the automatic slushbox fits it very well, and is fast indeed. But unimpressive and dissapointing in the sense that the interior design is terrible compared to the E46 (in my opinion), just like in the E90, and the whole feel of the car is just nearly like driving a 5er. Big car, and the engine feels more like a V8 than a rev-happy straight six.

It's not a fun car in a BMW fun sense, for example, like the Z4 M Coupé is. But it's a good example of how good slushboxes have got as of late.

But I hope the M3 in the same chassis will have more fire to it and I expect a lot from the M interiors as well. I know it won't fix the cockpit, but at least the materials will be better, and hopefully full leather will be available as an option for the M3. So far there are no M seats or other options available for the E92 335i, so with those (and with a manual) it would probably be a lot less boring car.

All in all, I guess what I'm trying to say, I'm expecting the M3 will bring life to the E92 3 series that the regular models don't have. And usually M division has been able to do that - when comparing the boring regular Z4's and the Z4 M's for example, that's the kind of difference I'm hoping and looking forward to.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Do you think its realistic that they will completely do away with slushboxes all together, now that they are working on the ZSG?

[JK42]

Yes, BMW's goal is to replace the torque converter automatics (the Steptronic) with the dual-clutch gearbox on all regular models eventually. Obviously manual transmissions will remain available as options for most, if not all models. The first "regular" BMW model with the double clutch gearbox should be coming out in 2007 and be the more highly tuned version of the 335i, the 335si. We'll see if the M3 hits the streets first, or after it, or about the same time. The only reason that VAG still uses the torque converter automatics in addition to the DSG is that their OEM DSG that they bought can't handle torque very well, so their more torquey models still need slushboxes, as they haven't developed any SMG-like technology.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Last E92 M3]

Originally Posted by JK42

Remember, that only applies for the automatic box on the 335i. The 330i and 325i (here in Europe) and I believe the 328i in the US have a slower, older Getrag slushbox (or was it ZF... the fast one is ZF at least.)

Best regards,

Jussi

gotta love united states...

[JK42]

Originally Posted by Last E92 M3

gotta love united states...

Nothing to do with US in this case. It's just that in the US, BMW is selling the E92 in models 328i and 335i and in Europe, 325i and 330i besides the 335i. If you look at the thead "price of cars overseas", I am very much FOR the US myself. EU and it's communist politicians is what sucks.

Best regards,

Jussi

[Romo]

Originally Posted by JK42

Impressive in the sense that the automatic slushbox fits it very well, and is fast indeed. But unimpressive and dissapointing in the sense that the interior design is terrible compared to the E46 (in my opinion), just like in the E90, and the whole feel of the car is just nearly like driving a 5er. Big car, and the engine feels more like a V8 than a rev-happy straight six.

It's not a fun car in a BMW fun sense, for example, like the Z4 M Coupé is. But it's a good example of how good slushboxes have got as of late.

But I hope the M3 in the same chassis will have more fire to it and I expect a lot from the M interiors as well. I know it won't fix the cockpit, but at least the materials will be better, and hopefully full leather will be available as an option for the M3. So far there are no M seats or other options available for the E92 335i, so with those (and with a manual) it would probably be a lot less boring car.

All in all, I guess what I'm trying to say, I'm expecting the M3 will bring life to the E92 3 series that the regular models don't have. And usually M division has been able to do that - when comparing the boring regular Z4's and the Z4 M's for example, that's the kind of difference I'm hoping and looking forward to.

Best regards,

Jussi

IMO the loss off the classic BMW cockpit, is the most painfull misstake made by BMW. It`s design was and is the best ever made in automobil industry, it was and still is enormously respected by car magazines and journalists all over the world and last but not least by BMW owners off course. The cockpit was an example too anybody in the industry. Anyway I like it too this day, the new style is horrible, there is no emotion in it what so ever. Other car brands like Audi, Ford to name a few, make far better interior designs. Now this is, for me at least, a verry painfull conclusion because BMW was way ahead whith their cockpit design, and know they have thrown it all away, even GM (Opel) does a better job, OMG that hurts

But I heard some rumours that BMW just might be going back too the "old" cockpit style. Maybe that Jussie has some opinion about this.

[JK42]

Romo,

You are absolutely right. And I think BMW is slowly correcting this mistake, it can be seen on the updated Z4s and the 1-series already that they are going back a little. The 130 for example has a more driver-centric cockpit again, with the front panel only in front of the front passenger and leaving room for the steering wheel and controls almost like in E46, one of the reasons why I like it so much over the E90 3er's.

But the basic cockpits of 5er and 3er as they are right now are just terrible (especially with the basic interior options.) It feels like you're sitting in front of a piano with two persons, and the steering wheel could be on either side - no difference whatsoever. The M interiors in the case of M5 make it a little better, especially with the full leather option, but that's not availble for the 3-series yet, but hopefully with the upcoming M3 we'll see the same on the 3er.

The 6 series surprisingly still has a pretty great cockpit. My only beef with it is that the default steering wheel (same as with the 5er) is terrible, but once you replace it with the M steering wheel, you're good to go.

If we talk about other manufacturers, we shouldn't forget that they have made pretty awful mistakes with cockpits too. Just look at the first generation Audi TT for example. It's enough to make you want to throw up. At least with BMW the problem is that the cockpit is not driver-oriented, but it's not "ugly" per se either, but on the TT the cockpit was truly ugly. Especially with the manual transmission (the gear knob and it's base are horrible-looking.) - at least they fixed that on the second gen TT, but they didn't fix the engines...

Best regards,

Jussi

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by JK42

Romo,

You are absolutely right. And I think BMW is slowly correcting this mistake, it can be seen on the updated Z4s and the 1-series already that they are going back a little. The 130 for example has a more driver-centric cockpit again, with the front panel only in front of the front passenger and leaving room for the steering wheel and controls almost like in E46, one of the reasons why I like it so much over the E90 3er's.

But the basic cockpits of 5er and 3er as they are right now are just terrible (especially with the basic interior options.) It feels like you're sitting in front of a piano with two persons, and the steering wheel could be on either side - no difference whatsoever. The M interiors in the case of M5 make it a little better, especially with the full leather option, but that's not availble for the 3-series yet, but hopefully with the upcoming M3 we'll see the same on the 3er.

The 6 series surprisingly still has a pretty great cockpit. My only beef with it is that the default steering wheel (same as with the 5er) is terrible, but once you replace it with the M steering wheel, you're good to go.

If we talk about other manufacturers, we shouldn't forget that they have made pretty awful mistakes with cockpits too. Just look at the first generation Audi TT for example. It's enough to make you want to throw up. At least with BMW the problem is that the cockpit is not driver-oriented, but it's not "ugly" per se either, but on the TT the cockpit was truly ugly. Especially with the manual transmission (the gear knob and it's base are horrible-looking.) - at least they fixed that on the second gen TT, but they didn't fix the engines...

Best regards,

Jussi

Hey Jussi, long time reader, first time responder.

I typically agree with your opinions posted here, however, must beg to differ on this point of interior design.

I personally find the interior of the 3er elegant and modern.... I am a fan of modern minimalist styling, so this may be why I am in favour of the interior on the 3er. Further, I find that the ergonomics are as good, if not, better than the E30, E36, E46 models which I have driven all of them extensively. I find that my hand moves mindlessly from the side of the steering wheel to gear knob to push-button controls and back... I do not see how people cannot call the cockpit driver oriented when the functions are so easy to get to and mindless to use (just like E36 and E46). The only difference is that the center controls are not obviously tilted towards the driver... to this, I say who cares.

The one caveat to my rant may be the fact that I am 6feet 4inches tall and this combined with the extra width of the interior may contribute to the fact that I find the interior design and ergonomics perfect for me.

Anyway, how about that new M3?! My father is on the waiting list waiting to trade his E46 330i Sport for it... I will have to steal it from him for a test drive as I am sure it will be quite an experience compared to my E90 323i ZSP!

Best regards,
epi

[Romo]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

Hey Jussi, long time reader, first time responder.

I typically agree with your opinions posted here, however, must beg to differ on this point of interior design.

I personally find the interior of the 3er elegant and modern.... I am a fan of modern minimalist styling, so this may be why I am in favour of the interior on the 3er. Further, I find that the ergonomics are as good, if not, better than the E30, E36, E46 models which I have driven all of them extensively. I find that my hand moves mindlessly from the side of the steering wheel to gear knob to push-button controls and back... I do not see how people cannot call the cockpit driver oriented when the functions are so easy to get to and mindless to use (just like E36 and E46). The only difference is that the center controls are not obviously tilted towards the driver... to this, I say who cares.

The one caveat to my rant may be the fact that I am 6feet 4inches tall and this combined with the extra width of the interior may contribute to the fact that I find the interior design and ergonomics perfect for me.

Anyway, how about that new M3?! My father is on the waiting list waiting to trade his E46 330i Sport for it... I will have to steal it from him for a test drive as I am sure it will be quite an experience compared to my E90 323i ZSP!

Best regards,
epi

Thats`s not the point, ergonomics have never been an issue within the BMW concept.
The point is that the cockpit design has to be seen as an original BMW feature, just unique for the car industry. It`s worth to take care off, just like double headlights or the 2 kidneys in the front. That`s what makes a BMW a BMW. Some things you can not change, it`s part off the whole concept/identity IMO.
Whith the presence off the new "cockpit" there is no identity anymore. It`s a clean and "anti bacterial" design, like I`am in an hospital operating room.
BMW had the best interior design in the past, an example to anyone, all over the world. Now that`s the past, at the moment they are far from the best, average maybe. For a premium brand this can not be good enough. IMO BMW has an obligation to do better than this. Bring back the identity !!

[enigma]

Man this is a nice interrior, love the layout of the buttons. the angled d..
*Crunch*

I guess I always though I was susposed to be watching the road when I drove rather than admiring the interrior. The purpose of the interior is to be functional. Does it provide me access to the control I need with minimal distraction. Does it give me the info I need with minimal distraction.

[Romo]

The whole package has to be right. This means; a good exterior, a good interior, a good engine, good driving and steering abilaties.
IMO BMW was/is one off the verry few to meet those demands, now they are still good, verry good indeed....................only for the interior that is. An old design is not always obsolete, old is not always worse, especialy when it is a part off the identity of the brand itself.

[JK42]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

Hey Jussi, long time reader, first time responder.
as I am sure it will be quite an experience compared to my E90 323i ZSP!

What's a E90 323i? To my knowledge there are models 325i and 330i on the US market of the E90, and coming up 335i.

Best regards,

Jussi

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by JK42

What's a E90 323i? To my knowledge there are models 325i and 330i on the US market of the E90, and coming up 335i.

Best regards,

Jussi

E90 323i is an E90 with a 2.5 litre, 174 horsepower (MY: 2006) or 200 hp (MY:2007) straight six. The 2006 engine is exactly the same as the euro spec 2.5 litre engine found in the E90 325i except detuned... that is to say, the intake manifold only has two stages rather than the mulitple stages found in the euro 325i and the ECU is less aggressive.

As for the interior design on the E90, I still must disagree with you. I find the interior elegant and ergonomically functional. I have regular access to an E46 as my father has one and every time I get in the E46, I feel like it is a nice interior but a bit dated. When I get in my E90, I feel like it is a nice interior that is cutting edge and elegant.

For those who find issue with the new interior, I don't see it. I love it! One would have to specifically point it out to me because I just don't see the down side in the new design. I feel that it is a nice, elegant, and modern evolution of the very nice interior that was found in the E46.

Best regards,
epi

[visor]

Originally Posted by epiphone3

For those who find issue with the new interior, I don't see it. I love it! One would have to specifically point it out to me because I just don't see the down side in the new design. I feel that it is a nice, elegant, and modern evolution of the very nice interior that was found in the E46.

Best regards,
epi

OK, I'll bite.

In my experience coming from an E46 330i to my current E90 330i, I find that there were several things that BMW changed in the interior design that was more for the sake of change and form, rather than for function.

For example, even though the E90 still retains a slight angulation towards the driver in the centre dash, the previous E46 was more driver-centric, more cockpit-like. Who cares whether the front passenger can see or adjust the temp/radio/etc settings when it's a driver's car.

Secondly, the decorative trim of wood/aluminum on the upper door has been moved down by the armrest/doorhandle. What a stupid idea! :mad: Just for the sake of that change, the trim is actually further away from the eyes (so that you can't appreciate it as much) and closer to my watch (so that I can scratch it with my titanium or steel watch against it when reaching down to adjust the seat settings.)!!