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01-30-2014, 03:29 PM | #1 | |
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Jenson Button's view on noise and torque of the turbo 6 vs NA V8...
In Autosport today:
http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...nk-of-f1-2014/ Quote:
A better clip of the 2014 sound: Last edited by Boss330; 01-31-2014 at 10:03 AM.. |
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01-30-2014, 03:51 PM | #3 | ||
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01-30-2014, 03:52 PM | #4 |
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So the newest most high tech FI engines in the world with the most accomplished drivers in the world still short shifts and ride the torque. I.e not much has changed in the power delivery and driving style of FI cars lately and frankly why should it? Low end grunt is what's special with FI and linear power build to a high redline with a glorious sound track is what's special with NA racing engines. Both are cool in their own way.
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01-30-2014, 03:58 PM | #6 | ||
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A modern turbo engine, especially with DI, goes a long way towards giving you the best of both worlds. Low and mid range grunt combined with high end power and high(ish) redline. Sound do suffer from turbocharging. |
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01-30-2014, 04:13 PM | #7 | |
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01-30-2014, 04:13 PM | #8 | |
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Read the original post again. I think you're missing something. |
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01-30-2014, 04:17 PM | #9 | |
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01-30-2014, 04:24 PM | #10 | |
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01-30-2014, 04:29 PM | #11 | |
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If you follow F1, you will also realize that even with the V8's they shortshifted at certain corners or parts of the track, or when it was wet. So shortshifting is nothing new. It's just that the redline (by the rules) now is 15.000rpm and shortshifting last year meant shifting at 16.000rpm instead of at 18.000rpm. And F1 isn't just about setting the fastest lap time every lap. Last few years there have been plenty of races with fuel saving (they are not allowed to refuel) and tire saving, with shortshifting playing a big part of conserving fuel and tires. The comment from the F1 driver wasn't that you should shortshift to get the best lap time, but that you could and still get power. If they always shortshift, then why bother with developing engines that has the ability to rev to 15.000rpm at all? And high rpm wear? Seriously! The redline is 15.000rpm this year, and has come down from 18.000rpm. To me, it sounds like you believe the F1 engines in 2014 will spend most of their time in the mid to low rpm range... |
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01-30-2014, 04:38 PM | #12 |
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The FI Tech in F1 2014 is so far beyond the tech that was in turbos earlier. And have you heard how reviewers like Chris Harris comments on how the engine in the M6 GC feels and acts both at mid range and especially at high rpm's? That is an opinion that is also widely reported in other tests and one that I regard with more weight, as he drives and compares loads of different cars the way they are meant to be driven. (BTW Chris Harris used to own an E92 M3, just as a reference on the cars he likes/liked personally...) |
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01-30-2014, 04:43 PM | #13 | |
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01-30-2014, 06:45 PM | #16 | |
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Last edited by solstice; 01-30-2014 at 07:04 PM.. |
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01-31-2014, 01:46 AM | #17 | |
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BTW, Sport Auto has scored the 991 Turbo S higher than the 991 GT3 for the first time in their Supertest history. Horst von Saurma calls it the "world's best car" at the moment!!! I'm also pretty sure that they didn't drive the 991 Turbo S with your preferred FI "short shift at all times to get the fastest lap times" method to beat the GT3... For me it's easy to decide who I should listen to between Sport Auto testers, Chris Harris, F1 drivers and random people on a internet forum that "have tracked a M5" To paraphrase; Seriously? I should go by what Solstice says about a car he has "tracked" once over what Chris Harris, Sport Auto etc says about the F1x M5/6? Over and out! Last edited by Boss330; 01-31-2014 at 01:54 AM.. |
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01-31-2014, 03:48 AM | #18 |
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Well, there was this detailed und very high quality discussion between CanAutM3 and swamp2 not long ago, where they proofed/agreed that at least the new S55 has to be shirtshifted all the time to get maximum performance. There was only some minor disagreement on how exactly drive train losses count in and thus where optimal shiftpoints exactly are. And to me, that is some dissapointment and one of the few unjustified bmw marketing boasts, too. Often I feel forumers here rant about marketing way too early, when actually they just don't get their facts right. But in that case, bmw.de advertised above mentioned "best of both worlds" -high red redline and low/mid range torque- when actually it isn't fully useable. That and the way they made us believe 3300lbs is EU and not DIN weight was real marketing deception in my view and I'm angry about it.
Anyway, I'm sure there is huge progression in FI technology in many aspects and no, it's not the same like a few years ago. |
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01-31-2014, 04:50 AM | #19 | |
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Just an easy calculation on torque to the wheels in each gear will give you a clue on whether it's beneficial to shortshift or go to the redline. If you get less torque to the wheels if you change up, then don't change up as acceleration will decrease. If you get more torque to the wheels by changing up, then you should do that. See how the torque to wheels work out for the S55 here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=188 Last edited by Boss330; 01-31-2014 at 05:02 AM.. |
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01-31-2014, 05:03 AM | #20 |
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No, that must have been a different discussion. I'll look it up. That wasn't the one you participated lately and it had some quite complex mathematics in it. I don't agree with your above mentioned easy calculations as they don't take frictional and inertial losses in the drivetrain sufficiently into consideration. But I don't want to start the whole argument again right here. If I find the time on the week end, maybe I'll try and start a thread with links to relevant posts and we see if we can get some things clear altogether.
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01-31-2014, 06:05 AM | #21 | ||
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Here are swamp2's simulations: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=847578 I'll quote him on the following: Quote:
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01-31-2014, 07:03 AM | #22 |
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Uh, well, now it seems the argument does start all over again. Of course you won't shift at maximum torque, I never claimed that. But you don't revv up to the redline with S55 either. On first sight, I can't find your quoted statement from swamp2, but it seems to contradict everything what I've read from him so far. I don't know. Anyway, I'm a MD in a big hospital and don't have the time to go into details right now. Also, I'm struggling with my english a bit every now and then. You're german, aren't you? Maybe we can pm later, this would make things easier for me?
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