Am I the only one?? BBKs too big for track use...

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by sfbimmer13

Folks, I am really starting to get annoyed about the fact that most people - assumption on my part - get a BBK mostly for looks and bling factor, thereby driving Brake makers into coming to market with kits that are simply not usable for the track since they require 19" rims. Fact is that the only R-Compounds available in that size are Hoosiers (don't like them) and PSCs which I don't like since they are neither a good street nor a great track tire + the are too expensive

Correct.

Try Performance Friction brakes. Their brake upgrade kit is 4-piston front and rear. Track proven, race proven, championship proven brakes.

http://store.bimmerworld.com/shared/...t=products.asp

Quote:
"Why not 6-piston? Performance Friction takes their top level racing technology and applies it to everything they design, and make every component that comes from their South Carolina manufacturing facility perform at the highest level possible. A 4-piston caliper, designed correctly, is lighter and has better release characteristics than a similar 6-piston piece. If you are trying to impress piston counters, there are much cheaper ways to do it. If you want the best performing brakes you can buy, look no further."

[Gearhead999s]

I will buy a track only car before I spend $8000 upgrading the brake system on My M3!I still think with proper track pads & fluid,the stock system will stand up to anything but a street crcuit and especially as it is only lapping days that we are talking about

[JEllis]

I will most likely keep my stock brakes.

Another draw back with some BBK's is their heavier weight over stock. The larger brakes add rotational mass. You have to decide if the increased brake performance is going to be significant enough to warrant increasing un-sprung weight.

Jason

[Ron@Modbargains]

Hi sfbimmer13 - We talked on the phone a couple weeks ago about this I have yet to hear back from AP. I can't speak for all of the aftermarket brake manufactures on their position but I did take this question to Brembo and worked with their engineers to get an answer.

In short, designing an aftermarket BBK starts with examining the OEM system.
You need to be able to identify why certain components were selected for the OEM system and how altering or changing these components affect the braking performance, comfort, integrity and safety of the vehicle. Brembo has one of, if not the most, strict criteria for all of these factors when developing their braking systems.

The main issue revolves around the choice for OEM disc size selected for the E92 M3.
The OEM disc is 360mm x 30mm with a very tall/wide annulus.
In order to effectively increase heat capacity, while reducing weight, a 380mm disc was the appropriate choice.
That packaged with their 6-piston monobloc caliper does make fitment under 18" wheels difficult, but not impossible.
There are a few 18" wheels that are already known to work well with this setup(Let me know if you need some recommendations).
The challenge is what comes first, the wheels or the brake kit?

In professional racing as SFBimmer already knows(he has the background) the goal for the braking system is "the smaller the better", only as long as it has the appropriate heat capacity to handle the abuse created in the intended environment. For OEM or aftermarket systems it's not as simple due to the fact that the "intended environment" is very broad and not as easily targeted. There's criteria for NVH (noise, vibration, harshness), comfort, longevity, and safety that all come into play. Brembo won't do anything to hinder things reducing in heat capacity, they won't never negatively affect bias, they wont ever reduce maximum brake torque. Because of this, 9 times out of 10, the aftermarket brake option will require more space within the wheel than an OEM system.

Basically they do realize that they will lose a certain percentage of the market all together, as well as some to other companies who may have a different criteria and make something work. They would rather do that then compromise their integrity for a few additional sales. Hope that helps clarify their stance.

Thanks guys

[TLud]

Are you guys who are running Pagid RS-19 pads on the track also using them for DD duty? If so, how do they behave on the street, especially when cold? Also, how noisy are they?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I will most likely keep my stock brakes.

Another draw back with some BBK's is their heavier weight over stock. The larger brakes add rotational mass. You have to decide if the increased brake performance is going to be significant enough to warrant increasing un-sprung weight.

Jason

Where did you get that information? A couple of members have weighed their Brembo and stock brake systems, and stock brakes were reported to be heavier.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by TLud

Are you guys who are running Pagid RS-19 pads on the track also using them for DD duty? If so, how do they behave on the street, especially when cold? Also, how noisy are they?

I posted this before on another thread:

"Pagid RS19's on the street:

Noise: Think school bus on steroids. Really noisy once they're bedded in and well used.
Dust: not bad, really.
Modulation: My wife refuses to drive the car with them on. Nose-bleed inducing if someone cuts you off and you tag the pedal in a hurry. Phenomenal at speed when hot.
Cost: $800 for both axles. I would NOT mix them with anything else.
Rotors: you need factory rotors with part numbers ending with "38x" where "x" is 5, 6, 7 or 8 depending on which corner you look at. You can see the numbers stamped into the rotor centers by looking through the wheels."

Another notable point: the rears work REALLY hard on the track - the yellow paint on the rear pads burns off first. My fronts are still yellow.

[TLud]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I posted this before on another thread:

"Pagid RS19's on the street:

Noise: Think school bus on steroids. Really noisy once they're bedded in and well used.
Dust: not bad, really.
Modulation: My wife refuses to drive the car with them on. Nose-bleed inducing if someone cuts you off and you tag the pedal in a hurry. Phenomenal at speed when hot.
Cost: $800 for both axles. I would NOT mix them with anything else.
Rotors: you need factory rotors with part numbers ending with "38x" where "x" is 5, 6, 7 or 8 depending on which corner you look at. You can see the numbers stamped into the rotor centers by looking through the wheels."

Another notable point: the rears work REALLY hard on the track - the yellow paint on the rear pads burns off first. My fronts are still yellow.

Thanks for the info.

[JAJ]

I wrote the post below in September 2008 in a brief moment of clarity. I'm pleased to report that Stoptech has responded and today I had confirmation from Dave Zeckhausen, the unofficial guru of all things Stoptech, that in January an 18-inch-wheel-friendly FRONT kit with 355x35mm rotors and ST-40 calipers will be available for sale. Apparently an engineering exercise for a prominent and highly successful racing team produced the necessary technology and now it's available for the rest of us. Regardless of all the arguments about whose 380mm bbk is the best, the 355mm Stoptechs are good enough for professional racing. As a track rat, I'm feeling pretty good about being able to get a kit that works with a sensible rim size.

So, raise a toast to the team that fields a blue and yellow M3 race car with a Stoptech logo and check Dave's website to find out where you can order them now for 2009 delivery.

The old quote was:

Originally Posted by JAJ

"I did find myself thinking about Stoptechs the other day. When I got the car, my plan had been to put them on as early as possible. I had them on my E39 M5 and they were super. However, I eventually concluded that marketing overcame common sense in their product design for the E9x, forcing me to stay with the stock brakes. Not a bad choice, really - they're working fine so far.

The problem I have with the design of Stoptech E9x fronts is that they have 380mm rotors and 6-piston calipers. From my 400 pounds heavier M5, I know that 355mm rotors and 4-piston calipers will stop this lighter car just fine. Stoptech's choice of the big rotors and calipers force you to use 19" rims, sharply restricting your available track tire choices. The few really good extreme-summer and R-comp choices available in 19" will set you back between $400 to $600 more than 18's at every tire change. The sad part is that there's no performance benefit from the larger tires, larger wheels or larger brakes - they reduce your options for tires and brake pads and they make driving more expensive - that's it.

The perfect track-rat package for the E9x brakes would be 355x32 rotors all around with ST-40 calipers. The range of available pad materials is vast, they're a breeze to change, 18" tires and wheels will fit, and nobody will ever miss the two-tenths of an inch in rotor diameter.

Sigh. How hard can this be?"

[clubspec330i]

My approach to this madness is one upgrade at a time. I started out with the Autoclub Speedway (California Speedway) in Fontana under OEM setup; stock pad, stock tires, and stock suspension. A few weeks later I went to Street of Willow, a little more brake intensive compare to the Roval at AAA Speedway, with Nitto NT01. The car seemed to brake better. A week later I went back to SOW again with PF R-4S pad in the front. I didn't get the transponder but from the seat of my pant, pad feels more consistent and no brake fade at all. My next upgrade would be PF in the rear when the weather get better again. After that, Ground Control coilover with corner weight balanced would definitely attribute to the reduction in brake distance as well.

Going BBK right away might be jumping the gun, IMO. I know M3 doesn't have the best brake compare to its rivalry but it should be okay for occasional track day. I don't track my car much, at most once a month but at the very least once every 3 months. Instead of dumping $3-$4 on BBK, I would put it to better use toward more driving school, suspension, and track wheels & tires.

For goodness sake, somebody come up with the brake duct..

[eagletangogreen]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I wrote this about three weeks ago in another thread on this board - suffice it to say I AGREE! We need to campaign for an 18"-rim-friendly BBK for the track.

"I did find myself thinking about Stoptechs the other day. When I got the car, my plan had been to put them on as early as possible. I had them on my E39 M5 and they were super. However, I eventually concluded that marketing overcame common sense in their product design for the E9x, forcing me to stay with the stock brakes. Not a bad choice, really - they're working fine so far.

The problem I have with the design of Stoptech E9x fronts is that they have 380mm rotors and 6-piston calipers. From my 400 pounds heavier M5, I know that 355mm rotors and 4-piston calipers will stop this lighter car just fine. Stoptech's choice of the big rotors and calipers force you to use 19" rims, sharply restricting your available track tire choices. The few really good extreme-summer and R-comp choices available in 19" will set you back between $400 to $600 more than 18's at every tire change. The sad part is that there's no performance benefit from the larger tires, larger wheels or larger brakes - they reduce your options for tires and brake pads and they make driving more expensive - that's it.

The perfect track-rat package for the E9x brakes would be 355x32 rotors all around with ST-40 calipers. The range of available pad materials is vast, they're a breeze to change, 18" tires and wheels will fit, and nobody will ever miss the two-tenths of an inch in rotor diameter.

Sigh. How hard can this be?"

100% True the St-40 are more than enough.. I won the VIR Time Attack with these brakes running 600hp WAY more than my weak sauce M3 and i had no problem, no break fade.. I was running NT-01 R compound with 315 and 275 and I was running out of tire before breaks>> 6 pistons is pure bling... Some people will argue that the 6 pistons will stay cooler, if your smoking your breaks you eather dont know how to drive or need to get paid driving..

[eagletangogreen]

Originally Posted by clubspec330i

My approach to this madness is one upgrade at a time. I started out with the Autoclub Speedway (California Speedway) in Fontana under OEM setup; stock pad, stock tires, and stock suspension. A few weeks later I went to Street of Willow, a little more brake intensive compare to the Roval at AAA Speedway, with Nitto NT01. The car seemed to brake better. A week later I went back to SOW again with PF R-4S pad in the front. I didn't get the transponder but from the seat of my pant, pad feels more consistent and no brake fade at all. My next upgrade would be PF in the rear when the weather get better again. After that, Ground Control coilover with corner weight balanced would definitely attribute to the reduction in brake distance as well.

Going BBK right away might be jumping the gun, IMO. I know M3 doesn't have the best brake compare to its rivalry but it should be okay for occasional track day. I don't track my car much, at most once a month but at the very least once every 3 months. Instead of dumping $3-$4 on BBK, I would put it to better use toward more driving school, suspension, and track wheels & tires.

For goodness sake, somebody come up with the brake duct..

Yes!

If thats the case you should be able to get the 355 with the 6 pot (if you want bling) and still fit on a 18

Heres a pic of my new BBK 355 with St-60

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by JAJ

Apparently an engineering exercise for a prominent and highly successful racing team produced the necessary technology and now it's available for the rest of us. Regardless of all the arguments about whose 380mm bbk is the best, the 355mm Stoptechs are good enough for professional racing. As a track rat, I'm feeling pretty good about being able to get a kit that works with a sensible rim size.

I don't know if I would simply assume that if it's "good enough for professional racing" that it somehow means it's good enough for our cars.

Most race cars that are built for a specific racing series are significantly lighter than the similar bodied street car, they are also more likely to employ proper and aerodynamically correct ducting that won't work on must of our street cars, not to mention much more comfortable with the regular replacement of consumable items and other hard components than we would be for a street car.

Just some food for thought, not trying to start a debate.

[KINGLEH]

the 355 6 pot will fit but you have to machine the hub a little... so i would pass on that...

st40 caliper should be fine tho...

[jml]

Originally Posted by JAJ

I wrote the post below in September 2008 in a brief moment of clarity. I'm pleased to report that Stoptech has responded and today I had confirmation from Dave Zeckhausen, the unofficial guru of all things Stoptech, that in January an 18-inch-wheel-friendly FRONT kit with 355x35mm rotors and ST-40 calipers will be available for sale. Apparently an engineering exercise for a prominent and highly successful racing team produced the necessary technology and now it's available for the rest of us. Regardless of all the arguments about whose 380mm bbk is the best, the 355mm Stoptechs are good enough for professional racing. As a track rat, I'm feeling pretty good about being able to get a kit that works with a sensible rim size.

So, raise a toast to the team that fields a blue and yellow M3 race car with a Stoptech logo and check Dave's website to find out where you can order them now for 2009 delivery.

The old quote was:

Kick-ass, this news is a great Christmas present, thanks a ton!

I 150% agree with the sentiment in this thread.

Anyone tried the Hawk HT10. I'd guess it is a better track pad than the RS19s. Wish PFC01s or DTC70s were available.