[Covfefe]

Originally Posted by Basketcase

Not really... yes the engine makes the same "powerband" but the transmission is what delivers it to the wheels, and that is what you feel from the seat of your pants...

True, but comparing a 6mt F87 to a ZF8 G87 for "down low power" is apples and oranges for no good reason. You could get the F87 in DCT and the G87 in 6mt, so any performance gains from auto vs manual are moot since the same could be said about the F87.

We have the dyno graphs; there's no need to speculate: F87 is significantly torquier down low, but I think most people here would trade that for the G87's power curve any day of the week.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

manual is more fun period.

Where's your data to back this up?

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Are you sure you didn't get these two reversed? Saying the G87's low end torque is frightening is exactly opposite of every other review I've watched/read.

Apparently there's a video out there of some Canadians who did a fourth gear pull in a manual that was quite frightening...

[jhall1957]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Where's your data to back this up?

Data, data, data….

This entire post thread started as a pinion piece . My opinion, no science and certainly no data.

Lots of data out there to review but it had nothing to do with my opinion.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by wavyyyy

Interesting, I appreciate the insight. I have a 6MT G80, my first 6MT car and I'm glad I do, but nice to know another reason why I'm slower than the auto

Yep. Extreme case - imagine launching the car in 6th gear (or, as Throttle House demonstrated, try pulling from 30mph in 4th). Gearing is the other half of the game.

Yes, you’ll have to downshift to get the most out of the S58. Isn’t that desirable for someone who bought this car to manually shift it?

[veenut28]

If I were in the market for a new sports coupe, I think I’d get the G87. F87 is not a good value on the used car market. Even M2C with 20k miles are selling at near MSRP. And the CS sellers are just not reading the market.

Not sure that I’d trade the F87 for the G87 though. That’s like divorcing your wife and celebrating by marrying her uglier, fatter sister.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by veenut28

That’s like divorcing your wife and celebrating by marrying her uglier, fatter sister.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by yoboi

The one thing new BMW’s(F8x and G8x) both lack is engine character, which was lost after the E9x and is the biggest differentiator between new special M cars and GT P-cars.

I agreed with everything else you said, but I'm not sure what this quoted bit means. The E9x used multiple engines, as did the F8x cars. There's overlap, the N55 appeared in both E and F cars.

In the E and F era, if we are talking about everything derived from the N54 (inline 6 turbocharged), I think there isn't that much difference in "character." The biggest difference is the turbo lag (dual scroll single turbo vs dual turbo) and how the boost is tuned in.

Unless you are talking specifically about the S65? In that case, sure, that V8 did have a special character. Unfortunately, it could not meet european emissions standards.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I agreed with everything else you said, but I'm not sure what this quoted bit means. The E9x used multiple engines, as did the F8x cars. There's overlap, the N55 appeared in both E and F cars.

In the E and F era, if we are talking about everything derived from the N54 (inline 6 turbocharged), I think there isn't that much difference in "character." The biggest difference is the turbo lag (dual scroll single turbo vs dual turbo) and how the boost is tuned in.

Unless you are talking specifically about the S65? In that case, sure, that V8 did have a special character. Unfortunately, it could not meet european emissions standards.

the s65 had a ton of character but it would be considered a very subpar performance motor these days... u simply can't do much w a small displacement V8... its not torquiey and not particularly powerful on the dyno... from my recollection, s65s dynod only like 360 whp... if he is referring to Porsche character, the pull out the checkbook bcuz a gt3 is not a fair comparo to anything here... not sure the carreras have THAT much more character at all

[jhall1957]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Yep. Extreme case - imagine launching the car in 6th gear (or, as Throttle House demonstrated, try pulling from 30mph in 4th). Gearing is the other half of the game.

Yes, you’ll have to downshift to get the most out of the S58. Isn’t that desirable for someone who bought this car to manually shift it?

I’m pretty sure to have the “best experience” this car is made for the 8 speed trans.

[jhall1957]

Originally Posted by veenut28

If I were in the market for a new sports coupe, I think I’d get the G87. F87 is not a good value on the used car market. Even M2C with 20k miles are selling at near MSRP. And the CS sellers are just not reading the market.

Not sure that I’d trade the F87 for the G87 though. That’s like divorcing your wife and celebrating by marrying her uglier, fatter sister.

But the sister is much better in the sack!

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by jhall1957

I’m pretty sure to have the “best experience” this car is made for the 8 speed trans.

For sure. It's so good at everything. Unfortunately, my 6MT custom build went into production literally the day before I took delivery of my ZF8 HEA. Based on my driving preferences and use case, I would've switched. I'm looking for the ultimate fun daily and the G87 with auto is essentially perfect for me.

I'm eagerly awaiting the G87 CS/CSL, and will get that car with the ZF8 for sure.

To be clear, the 6MT is an excellent choice, as well. It's electric when you really push it. Reminds me of some of the thrill drives I used to take in my E46 M.

[veenut28]

Originally Posted by jhall1957

But the sister is much better in the sack!

Faster ain’t always better lol

[antzcrashing]

Lol comparing to CS. Shuts laptop and goes to bed.

[vampire81]

jhall1957 can you tell if the left foot rest in the g87 is not offset like in the f87, please?

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by Tag

Shame the G87 was AT. All the controversy with the #TH4GC was over the MT.

I don’t understand why people are so upset about TH comments? It was a lightly comedic way to illustrate turbo lag, that’s all.

People said similar things about the F8X in that changing between gears in the manual variants was sluggish vs. manual because of the turbo lag. Other cars do the same thing based turbo configuration.

Pulling from 4th gear like that isn’t entirely realistic, but it was to illustrate a point, a point which they praised the AT for being superior. People are way too sensitive.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Apparently there's a video out there of some Canadians who did a fourth gear pull in a manual that was quite frightening...

They we’re probably drinking MooseHead during the shoot

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

I don’t understand why people are so upset about TH comments? It was a lightly comedic way to illustrate turbo lag, that’s all.

People said similar things about the F8X in that changing between gears in the manual variants was sluggish vs. manual because of the turbo lag. Other cars do the same thing based turbo configuration.

Pulling from 4th gear like that isn’t entirely realistic, but it was to illustrate a point, a point which they praised the AT for being superior. People are way too sensitive.

Except the TH test was literally none of that. It was played quite seriously, not as a gag. It didn't explain ANYTHING to anyone who didn't already know. To people who didn't know all about powertrains, it implied the car was defective.

It's irresponsible to put something out there without 1) sufficient context to back it up or 2) making it clear it's a joke. They did neither, it was sloppy AF.

As evidence by the misinformed comments in this forum after that video, it really did mislead some people, even to the point of thinking the G87 was defective so they shouldn't buy it. In that sense the video did damage, it ain't about being "sensitive."

I mean, even you seemed to misunderstand. It's not, strictly speaking, turbo lag. It's boost threshold and gearing ratios and sweet spots in the powerband. Similar, but different from turbo lag.

And yes, this leads to followups about linear vs non-linear power delivery and pros and cons of tall and short gears and low-end vs. top end power other nuances etc. etc. And I know people don't want an essay about the fine points of engines and driving in a dumb youtube video.

BUT, my point is, if you aren't going to get into the nuance, best not open that can of worms. Because you are gonna do more harm than good. And that's why what TH did was bad.

SG, by contrast, properly supplied much more context with their critiques, and for that reason I have no beef with them.

[Squidget]

As an example, all TH needed to do was say something like:

"Like many track-oriented engines, the G87's motor is tuned to deliver maximum power at high RPMs, all the way to redline. Street-oriented engines like in the F87 are tuned to deliver more power at the low end, but less at the high end.

So if you are coming from street cars or the F87, you have to adjust. To tap all of the G87's power, you must keep the revs higher and shift frequently. If this sounds like too much work, we recommend you get the automatic."

There. Done. Everything an underinformed viewer needed to know to make an actual informed decision. TH didn't need to do a dumb 4th gear thing.

[Squidget]

Since I'm feeling especially "teach-y" today.

For anyone who doesn't know the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold, here's a primer that may help. (Disclaimer: it has some simplifications.)

Especially note the parts about how boost is RPM-dependent, that's the key point:

If you’re driving at about 5 mph in second gear, your tachometer might have you right around 1,000 RPM. If you punch the accelerator, you won’t get boost until you reach the boost threshold RPM level. At that point, the turbo will spin enough to push air into the engine.

For the Focus ST, the boost threshold is around 1,500 RPM for most gears. However, for first gear it’s around 3,000 RPM and in second gear it’s in the neighborhood of 2,000 RPM. This isn’t the result of a mechanical function, but rather, an electronic decision controlled by the car’s computer.

Ford most likely limits boost in the lower gears to avoid/mitigate wheel spin.

Using these principles, now TH's observations should make more sense*.


*well, more sense to the novice. For the non-novice, they make less sense. The G87 boot thresholds chosen by BMW seem weird (different from the G8x), and we'd like to understand why.

[mfarrzhp]

I’m not at all surprised that some feel like the G87 is a better driving experience. My first M car was the holy grail E46 M3. My tuned 135i with coilovers and LSD was more fun to drive. The F87 CS is much more fun.

Not hard to believe that the G87 auto with the next gen engine and adaptive suspension feels like a better experience. Even with increasing size, weight and drastic design changes, BMW seems to get the small cars better with every generation.

I can’t remember if The Straight Pipes said they liked the F87 CS better or if they just thought it looks better. I’ll also be interested to see how EVO compares the G87 to their 2020 COTY.

The Conti AS tires might be the weak point, but it may not have made a difference in the final result. I may pick up a G87 in the next couple of years, but I’m not selling the CS any time soon.

[E66er]

G87 looks much better in my opinion.