[DutchBoysRacing]

Hey All,

So I am having an issue that i haven't experienced before. I am running the APEX VS-5RS (19x11) square and holy crap the wheels have gotten bent with track use. I've taken the car to about 10 track days so far and running 305/30/19 SuperCar3R tires.

It's gotten to the point where it is very very very obvious the wheels are bent, it feels like my wheels have racing cams on them lol. This is a bit concerning as they are track wheels. I know they have a replacement program but I rather not spend $1900 every 6 months on replacing wheels.

Does anyone have experience with Titan T-P10 wheels? I'm looking for something a bit tougher

[BroDoze]

That’s.. interesting.

Pics?

I was wanting to get these Anthracites for my MY25:

https://apexwheels.com/wheels/forged...ize=18x10-et25

[tovel]

Jackie Ding - PhD Racing had both wheels and he does extensive track racing. You might want to leave a comment on his YouTube channel and ask.

[Montaver]

The Titans won’t be any tougher, in fact I think Apex actually did a video and compared recently when they launched their new race reinforced wheel I forget the name. In that video the Titans were the weakest. Also what makes you think they are bent, are they not balancing up properly?

[DutchBoysRacing]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The Titans won’t be any tougher, in fact I think Apex actually did a video and compared recently when they launched their new race reinforced wheel I forget the name. In that video the Titans were the weakest. Also what makes you think they are bent, are they not balancing up properly?

Following confirmation:
The fact that driving in the paddock I can physically feel the wheels wobbling.

The tire shop keeps warning me that the wheels "need to be replaced" (doubtful they NEED to be replaced)

My buddy whos a professional TransAM driver, drove the car and commented that the wheels feel "fucked".

Originally Posted by tovel

Jackie Ding - PhD Racing had both wheels and he does extensive track racing. You might want to leave a comment on his YouTube channel and ask.

talked to Jackie on Discord and he brought up the fact the Titans are a bit heavier but are much tougher.

[Montaver]

Have you actually put the wheels on a road force balancer with nothing mounted to see? Supercar 3r is a very sticky tire, they will be rotating on the wheel and going out of balance even with knurling. How they feel when you come off track is not nescessarily going to be an indication they are bent, especially all 4. Unless you have been smacking the edge of curbs or going off track into potholes etc. Either that or perhaps a batch had a mettalurgy issue or something. Wheels are also a consumable although not after 10 track days. You should reach out to apex after checking them on a road force balance machine.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Sticky tires pick up rubber easily and become unbalanced.

Not just that, but rubber picked up can get stuck in the wheelbarrow and make it unbalanced too.

Going on track gets the wheel hot enough to melt the glue of the balancing weights, and they fall often regularly, causing the wheel to become unbalanced too.

I too am curious how a bent wheel was diagnosed. Track driving isn’t hard on wheels… unless you’re hopping curbs and depending on the curbs your track has. I would never dream of bending wheels on any track I’ve ever driven on, but who knows…

For sure I have forgotten to tape my weights before so I know all too well 😂I would assume OP is taping his weights down but who knows. I would also suggest OP mark the tire with a piece of chalk at the stem so you can see if it moves. On a SC3R which is basically a slick, it will rotate on the wheel under heavy braking even with the nice knurling Apexs have. I have bent wheels on track, but when you bend a wheel you certainly know about it as it takes a big hit. Apex’s are pretty stout in my experience, I have owned multiple sets and never had issues. I’ll be getting a set of VS-5RS as track wheels soon, ran them on my last car as well.

[ZPD]

Originally Posted by Montaver

For sure I have forgotten to tape my weights before so I know all too well 😂I would assume OP is taping his weights down but who knows. I would also suggest OP mark the tire with a piece of chalk at the stem so you can see if it moves. On a SC3R which is basically a slick, it will rotate on the wheel under heavy braking even with the nice knurling Apexs have. I have bent wheels on track, but when you bend a wheel you certainly know about it as it takes a big hit. Apex’s are pretty stout in my experience, I have owned multiple sets and never had issues. I’ll be getting a set of VS-5RS as track wheels soon, ran them on my last car as well.

my SC3R will rotate up to a 1/2 turn each track day.

DutchBoysRacing have you tried rotating the wheels while the car is off the ground? You can use a fixed point at the edge of the wheel and look for variations in the gap.

[DutchBoysRacing]

Here is the "least bent rim" I got from the tire shop mounting a brand new SuperCar3R on the rim. They are all very very very bad. I do attack curbs but honestly I used to do far worse with my E92 M3 and the VS-5RS held up fine.

I am assuming this is to do with the limited sideway available on the 305/30/19 AND the extra weight of the M2 (~3,900 LB w/ me in car).

https://giphy.com/gifs/H2Ez5SFOCt3X2VhpLO


To answer some questions:

1. The rim(s) are physically deformed and is visible to see the wheel is bent, not unbalanced. You can feel the wheels are bent driving in the paddock, and on track. You can FEEL it. Also confirmed by the tire shop.

2. I am using metal tape to mount the wheel weights to the rim.

3. I rotate my wheels every two sessions as I toss the rubber after about 6-7 heat cycles as they become uncompetitive in time trial. They fall off wayyyy to much and I'm all about lap time.

4. I've run APEX wheels before and have not had this issue before:
a: ARC8 - E36 M3
b: ARC8: E92 M3

I bought these rims in 2023 (I received my car in november 2023 and got the rims the same month) , they've lasted 7 months and 10 events. I am unwilling to spend $1800 to send these back to APEX to get another set that will most likely last just as long. I am calling APEX on Tuesday to see what they'll do for me.

I will be buying the Titan's from Jackie to see how they hold up compared to the APEX.

[ZPD]

Ah man, that is really bad. Thanks for the video. Keep us posted on what Apex says and on the Titans. I have the same setup and I will keep an eye out for the same issue.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by DutchBoysRacing

Here is the "least bent rim" I got from the tire shop mounting a brand new SuperCar3R on the rim. They are all very very very bad. I do attack curbs but honestly I used to do far worse with my E92 M3 and the VS-5RS held up fine.

I am assuming this is to do with the limited sideway available on the 305/30/19 AND the extra weight of the M2 (~3,900 LB w/ me in car).

https://giphy.com/gifs/H2Ez5SFOCt3X2VhpLO


To answer some questions:

1. The rim(s) are physically deformed and is visible to see the wheel is bent, not unbalanced. You can feel the wheels are bent driving in the paddock, and on track. You can FEEL it. Also confirmed by the tire shop.

2. I am using metal tape to mount the wheel weights to the rim.

3. I rotate my wheels every two sessions as I toss the rubber after about 6-7 heat cycles as they become uncompetitive in time trial. They fall off wayyyy to much and I'm all about lap time.

4. I've run APEX wheels before and have not had this issue before:
a: ARC8 - E36 M3
b: ARC8: E92 M3

I bought these rims in 2023 (I received my car in november 2023 and got the rims the same month) , they've lasted 7 months and 10 events. I am unwilling to spend $1800 to send these back to APEX to get another set that will most likely last just as long. I am calling APEX on Tuesday to see what they'll do for me.

I will be buying the Titan's from Jackie to see how they hold up compared to the APEX.

Sorry to hear about the issues! I'll reach out via DM to get some of the order details from you & coordinate with Customer Service.

-Tom

[BroDoze]

Ouch!

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by DutchBoysRacing

Hey All,

So I am having an issue that i haven't experienced before. I am running the APEX VS-5RS (19x11) square and holy crap the wheels have gotten bent with track use. I've taken the car to about 10 track days so far and running 305/30/19 SuperCar3R tires.

It's gotten to the point where it is very very very obvious the wheels are bent, it feels like my wheels have racing cams on them lol. This is a bit concerning as they are track wheels. I know they have a replacement program but I rather not spend $1900 every 6 months on replacing wheels.

Does anyone have experience with Titan T-P10 wheels? I'm looking for something a bit tougher

Titan7 T-P10 model doesn't cover BMW fitments, but we have a ton of different styles to choose from next time you're in the area. These are pretty much the defacto-standard on our race cars and can take the abuse.

[Montaver]

Wow that is bad, must say I’m surprised. What tracks/ curbs are you riding? I’m sure apex will sort it fir you.

305/30/19 is used a lot on the Mustangs/camaros and they are equally heavy. I see a lot of them running apex wheels. I ran that size on the rear of my GT4 and had Apex VS5RS but that car weighs 3200lbs with driver.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

This thread deserved a longer reply, but I was tied up in some meetings earlier today and only had time to drop a quick reply and send a DM to make sure the OP had everything he needed. I wanted to circle back on this though as the bends are quite severe.

Some of this will be reused from what I DM'ed DutchBoysRacing earlier.

Our Wheel Replacement Program covers any damage to the wheels, track or not and certainly applies to this order. Wheel bends do happen and I don't think any of our wheels are invulnerable but all 4 wheels bending in such a short time frame without extreme impacts on track or encountering wheel-eating corners like turn 6 at Thunderhill West or similar is quite odd.

The G87 is a larger and heavier car and the OP is running aggressive fitments on a 30 aspect ratio tire which could certainly also play a role here. With that being said, I've seen other customers running similar setups without bending issues like what is shown here. I've asked for more info from the OP about the damage and look forward to learning more about this specific situation.

In a perfect world, I'd recommend our Enduro line of wheels for a car being driven like this, but we don't yet have them available for the G chassis BMWs. This is something I've been considering offering, but right now the cars are so new that I haven't seen as much demand for the more hardcore wheels like the Enduro line. It's frankly challenging convincing some of our G87 customers to move from the OE staggered diameters let alone run a track-oriented wheel without centercap support.

I would like to hear more from the G87 Community on if a stronger higher load rating wheel with extremely robust inner lips is something you'd appreciate.
Full video on our Enduro wheels with the breakdown of that line:

Beyond the shift to a higher load rating and stronger inner lip, there is no denying the Enduro wheels are heavier than our Sprint line wheels. The extra material is needed to provide the increase in strength and stiffness that is the foundation of this line. I'd love to hear feedback from the G87 Community on whether you'd be interested in a more durable wheel at the expense of rotational mass. It won't be a 1 to 1 comparison, but our 19x11 ET44 5x120 BMW wheel is 3lbs/wheel heavier when comparing Enduro Line to Sprint Line. I should also note that many G87 owners track Sprint Line wheels without the bends you're seeing so it is an interesting trade-off of rotational mass VS ultimate strength and stiffness.

Considering other wheel manufacturers is definitely an option, but the VS-5RS is quite an optimized design with a robust inner lip (the most critical portion of the wheel when it comes to resisting bending). We're confident that our wheels are at least as strong in the inner lip area if not much stronger than our competition with similar load ratings and weights. Frankly, your good results in the past with the other VS-5RS set and ARC-8s speak volumes and likely indicate a difference in diameter/Tires/vehicle weight or speed is making the G87 set more likely to bend. The ARC-8s are a great design and an excellent flow-formed wheel, but their inner lip is weaker and less resilient than the VS-5RS by some margin. Edge cases where wheels are being damaged regularly can happen which is why we have multiple lines with different features, but I'd love to hear from M2 owners if you'd be interested in a more durable wheel option built for sticky tires and heavy aero loads.

-Tom

[DutchBoysRacing]

Originally Posted by Expert@ApexWheels

This thread deserved a longer reply, but I was tied up in some meetings earlier today and only had time to drop a quick reply and send a DM to make sure the OP had everything he needed. I wanted to circle back on this though as the bends are quite severe.

Some of this will be reused from what I DM'ed DutchBoysRacing earlier.

Our Wheel Replacement Program covers any damage to the wheels, track or not and certainly applies to this order. Wheel bends do happen and I don't think any of our wheels are invulnerable but all 4 wheels bending in such a short time frame without extreme impacts on track or encountering wheel-eating corners like turn 6 at Thunderhill West or similar is quite odd.

The G87 is a larger and heavier car and the OP is running aggressive fitments on a 30 aspect ratio tire which could certainly also play a role here. With that being said, I've seen other customers running similar setups without bending issues like what is shown here. I've asked for more info from the OP about the damage and look forward to learning more about this specific situation.

In a perfect world, I'd recommend our Enduro line of wheels for a car being driven like this, but we don't yet have them available for the G chassis BMWs. This is something I've been considering offering, but right now the cars are so new that I haven't seen as much demand for the more hardcore wheels like the Enduro line. It's frankly challenging convincing some of our G87 customers to move from the OE staggered diameters let alone run a track-oriented wheel without centercap support.

I would like to hear more from the G87 Community on if a stronger higher load rating wheel with extremely robust inner lips is something you'd appreciate.
Full video on our Enduro wheels with the breakdown of that line:

Beyond the shift to a higher load rating and stronger inner lip, there is no denying the Enduro wheels are heavier than our Sprint line wheels. The extra material is needed to provide the increase in strength and stiffness that is the foundation of this line. I'd love to hear feedback from the G87 Community on whether you'd be interested in a more durable wheel at the expense of rotational mass. It won't be a 1 to 1 comparison, but our 19x11 ET44 5x120 BMW wheel is 3lbs/wheel heavier when comparing Enduro Line to Sprint Line. I should also note that many G87 owners track Sprint Line wheels without the bends you're seeing so it is an interesting trade-off of rotational mass VS ultimate strength and stiffness.

Considering other wheel manufacturers is definitely an option, but the VS-5RS is quite an optimized design with a robust inner lip (the most critical portion of the wheel when it comes to resisting bending). We're confident that our wheels are at least as strong in the inner lip area if not much stronger than our competition with similar load ratings and weights. Frankly, your good results in the past with the and other VS-5RS set and ARC-8s speak volumes and likely indicate a difference in diameter/Tires/vehicle weight or speed is making the G87 set more likely to bend. The ARC-8s are a great design and an excellent flow-formed wheel, but their inner lip is weaker and less resilient than the VS-5RS by some margin. Edge cases where wheels are being damaged regularly can happen which is why we have multiple lines with different features, but I'd love to hear from M2 owners if you'd be interested in a more durable wheel option built for sticky tires and heavy aero loads.

-Tom

I also want to add that Tom has been great so far in reaching out. I want to make it clear my point was not to flame or "talk shit" on APEX as I love their product and honestly I should have probably called them before making a forum post. I am unsure if anyone else on the G Chasis was running into similar problems.

I currently have the wheels at a buddies as I was recently at Charleston Peak in NV and was lazy and let my buddy trailer the wheels back. I will be using them again at Streets of Willow on 6/29/2024 so I will be able to grab more photos and video.

*EDIT*

I would absolutely love to have a stronger wheel that can take the abuse and it seems like the EnduroLine would be the answer (or pressuring tire manufactures into making a 305/35/19 to add some cushion for the rim)

Originally Posted by Montaver

Wow that is bad, must say I’m surprised. What tracks/ curbs are you riding? I’m sure apex will sort it fir you.

305/30/19 is used a lot on the Mustangs/camaros and they are equally heavy. I see a lot of them running apex wheels. I ran that size on the rear of my GT4 and had Apex VS5RS but that car weighs 3200lbs with driver.

I usually run the following tracks:

Buttonwillow CW13 + Variants (not the most wheel friendly track...)
Streets Of Willow CW+CCW
Chuckwalla Valley Raceway CW+CCW
Laguna Seca

I haven't run Thunderhill yet in this car

[aerobod]

When kerb hopping on track, the inner lip is particularly vulnerable, as the inside wheel can leave the ground then re-impact an uneven kerb with about 6 degrees of camber relative to the track surface, easily bottoming out the inner sidewall of the tyre and putting a high load on the relatively unsupported lip.

[DutchBoysRacing]

Originally Posted by M2siast

As someone with no skin in the game (don’t have Apex, but have considered them, and they’re still top of my list if I’m buying wheels):

I always considered these wheels because they are marketed as stronger than OEM (at least than the cast stock wheels the M2 comes with).

As I mentioned, I’d never dream of bending wheels on track (usually smoother than driving roads), and to see a product that’s marketed as stronger get bent (and all 4s, to boot) doesn’t bode well.

When you ask “are we as customers interested in stronger wheels?” I can say, from my point of view, “no”. We just want wheels that are as strong as OEM, if a bit stronger, better.

I hope there’s further investigation that happens here:

1- to find out more details about the driving style and any specifics as to where they could have bent
2- to understand if the track has any places where the wheels could get bent
3- if there’s any material defect on this batch of wheels
4- if OP should get a full warranty on the product if applicable, not some “well cover shipping if you buy new ones”.

As a consumer, these are things I’m mostly interested in seeing.

As I mentioned, this is the top brand on my list when/if I’m replacing my wheels. I’m following with interest to learn more about this case and the following steps.

I do not mean to come off as harsh but I know myself and I can sound very direct. If it comes off as offensive or brash, please re-read with another light just focusing on the words, not any implied emotion, as there isn’t any.

Cheers!

So I can answer some of these from my experience with track (forged wheels).

Forged wheels are not always stronger. They can be lighter to meet the strength level of a cast wheel that has more mass. A forged wheel that is the same weight of cast is usually stronger but the whole advantage of track wheels is having a lighter wheel that meets the strength requirements. From my experience APEX has usually nailed this.

1. My driving style bends wheels. Usually any heavy track driving will deform a wheel a bit over a period of time. The question becomes "how much?" and "how soon?" not "will this happen". Wheels, pads, studs, and the like are all consumables. BUT if I had a pair of track pads last me two days I would be a bit shocked even if every stop on track was full lock up / abs.

2. Buttonwillow has some "not wheel friendly corners". But once again, bending a wheel slightly over a period of time is expected, having wheels that are so significantly bent is scary as this will eventually fuck up the wheel bearings, mess up the contact patch of the tire and lead to uneven grip levels.

3. Lets hope there is no material defect. My big assumption is the reduction in sidewall for the tire + the weight of the car has played a large part in this. But as APEX said, they have had many G-Series cars not have this issue so I am unaware of this.

4. APEX has a great exchange program where with any damage on street or track they will exchange the wheels for new wheels for half off. I buy the new seat of wheels ($3200), they refund me $1600 after I send in the old wheels and pay for shipping. Thats usually really attractive unless from my "math", I need to do that every 6 months. Then I am esentially buying a set of rims twice a year. I would expect a tack set of wheels to last 18 months (this is from my past experience with my E92 M3).

I would say if you're looking for a street set you'd be fine unless you live in Los Angeles or a city with pot wholes the size of elephants. Then any wheel would get totally fucked.

Originally Posted by aerobod

When kerb hopping on track, the inner lip is particularly vulnerable, as the inside wheel can leave the ground then re-impact an uneven kerb with about 6 degrees of camber relative to the track surface, easily bottoming out the inner sidewall of the tyre and putting a high load on the relatively unsupported lip.

Absolutely, but once again my E92 M3 I was a lot more aggressive on kerbs as it weighed (3300 lb w/ me in it) and was running 18x10.5 (275/35/18) and never had this issue. My wheels would eventually deform but never to the point I could visably see, feel and hear the deformity.

[DutchBoysRacing]

Just an update post.

Talked with Tom at APEX and all I can say is they went above and beyond. Super awesome to get a call directly from a forum post and having them willing to help out.

I am moving to a 18x10.5 size so I can run 295/35/18 which will hopefully alleviate the issue with the extra side wall.

[Polo08816]

Originally Posted by DutchBoysRacing

So I can answer some of these from my experience with track (forged wheels).

Forged wheels are not always stronger. They can be lighter to meet the strength level of a cast wheel that has more mass. A forged wheel that is the same weight of cast is usually stronger but the whole advantage of track wheels is having a lighter wheel that meets the strength requirements. From my experience APEX has usually nailed this.

1. My driving style bends wheels. Usually any heavy track driving will deform a wheel a bit over a period of time. The question becomes "how much?" and "how soon?" not "will this happen". Wheels, pads, studs, and the like are all consumables. BUT if I had a pair of track pads last me two days I would be a bit shocked even if every stop on track was full lock up / abs.

2. Buttonwillow has some "not wheel friendly corners". But once again, bending a wheel slightly over a period of time is expected, having wheels that are so significantly bent is scary as this will eventually fuck up the wheel bearings, mess up the contact patch of the tire and lead to uneven grip levels.

3. Lets hope there is no material defect. My big assumption is the reduction in sidewall for the tire + the weight of the car has played a large part in this. But as APEX said, they have had many G-Series cars not have this issue so I am unaware of this.

4. APEX has a great exchange program where with any damage on street or track they will exchange the wheels for new wheels for half off. I buy the new seat of wheels ($3200), they refund me $1600 after I send in the old wheels and pay for shipping. Thats usually really attractive unless from my "math", I need to do that every 6 months. Then I am esentially buying a set of rims twice a year. I would expect a tack set of wheels to last 18 months (this is from my past experience with my E92 M3).

I would say if you're looking for a street set you'd be fine unless you live in Los Angeles or a city with pot wholes the size of elephants. Then any wheel would get totally fucked.



Absolutely, but once again my E92 M3 I was a lot more aggressive on kerbs as it weighed (3300 lb w/ me in it) and was running 18x10.5 (275/35/18) and never had this issue. My wheels would eventually deform but never to the point I could visably see, feel and hear the deformity.

I'm inclined to think it's mostly driving style and partly sidewall height. If you used a factory tire size or even a tire size that resulted in a bit more sidewall height like a 285/35/19 square setup, you should not be bending wheels left and right. The 285/35/19 setup would even have slightly more sidewall height over your E92 sidewall height.

I don't think even a slightly "stronger" forged wheel setup with a thicker lip will prevent the wheel damage that you have experienced.

[DutchBoysRacing]

Originally Posted by Polo08816

I'm inclined to think it's mostly driving style and partly sidewall height. If you used a factory tire size or even a tire size that resulted in a bit more sidewall height like a 285/35/19 square setup, you should not be bending wheels left and right. The 285/35/19 setup would even have slightly more sidewall height over your E92 sidewall height.

I don't think even a slightly "stronger" forged wheel setup with a thicker lip will prevent the wheel damage that you have experienced.

You're absolutely right, in Bimmer Challenge we are not "nice" to the kerbs but honestly I was WAY more aggressive with my E92 as the coil overs and solid SPL arms made it easier to "hop" kerbs.

The E92 M3 wheels did get bent, but it wasn't to the point of potentially damaging the wheel bearing and becoming undrivable. My E92 M3 was also 3400lb with me in the car, the G87 M2 is about 3900 with me in the car.

I'm inclined to come to the following conclusion:
- I drive like a madman
- The suspension isn't as forgiving as a two way coil over with adjusted compression and rebound
- Driving like this with a smaller sidewall with an extra 500lb of car is not the best idea

I will have some more data as I am getting the 18x10.5 wheels from APEX during the middle of next month and then have three days at Laguna Seca in August after Car WEek.

[HanhREm2]

The way you drive and the abuse these wheels go thru I am 100% sure you will bend something. Even the "name brand" wheels made in Japan forged will bend and warp with aggressive driving styles and going over curbs. The wheels do become consumable at your level of driving skill and speed =)