[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

I don’t need to google, I’ve worked professionally in the tuning industry since 2003. I’ve installed and tuned countless actually piggyback tuners, a few different brands of standalone, and a few different software solutions for stock ECU (flash tuning).

What you’re failing to understand is that the JB4 is not a piggyback tuner. It literally does not tune. It’s literally a boost controller. Just because it has some extra boost control tables doesn’t make it more than a boost controller. Boost controllers have never been referred to as tuners anywhere in the industry until BMS marketing.

JB4 is not tissue papers to Kleenex. JB4 is like calling a box of bandaids an EMT.

You have been grossly mislead.

You seem to not know that there is such thing as a piggyback tuner, that actually tune. Well there are, I’ve used them.


I am not here to argue if the JB4 is better or worse than tuning with a flash tune. I am here to tell you that a JB4 does not even tune! It isn’t a form of tuning at all!

What do you use on your G42?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

Well, as long as you understand that it’s not a tuner, I’m satisfied. My main point from the start is that the JB4 doesn’t do any tuning other than the boost curve.

To me, that makes it just a boost controller. If it’s extra gimmicks have you feeling like you need to hold it in higher regard, well whatever.. you go right ahead.

Fact remains, the DME is using knock and o2 feedback to clean up after the JB4 took what tuning was there and threw it all out of wack.

You are making two claims

1- the Jb4 is only a boost controller:

The statement is incorrect. I provided an example demonstrating how the JB4 actually manipulates timing.

While it's completely acceptable if you disagree with how it achieves this, it doesn't dismiss the fact that this functionality exists.

A boost controller as the name implies, only controls boost. The Jb4 has access to control other parameters.
This is a fact, not an opinion, whether you wish to accept it or not.

2- the JB4 is not a tuner


In my opinion, any modification towards exacting more power from the DME is tuning. This holds true whether you use a basic boost controller or a full flash tune.


On this one it's a matter of personal opinion and terminology to what each considers a tuner. We'll have to agree to disagree:thumbs-up:

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

What do you use on your G42?

Stock. I currently have no plans to tune it. If I ever do, the only known option at the moment is the FEMTO unlock and then tune with either BM3 or MHD.

Unless ECUTEK catches up, as I am native to ECUTEK and use it in 2 of my cars and having the tuning suite. I’d prefer it for familiarity alone.

As I ship internationally to customers at least a few times a week, there is basically no inconvenience for me to send my DME to Finland. It would take me 5 minutes to do that. Having 4 pretty modified vehicles (3 to the moon), I don’t mind my BMWs being essentially stock and under warranty.

If you were curious if I would say I am using an actual piggy back tuner on it; I’ll tell you that if I ever tried to breakout into the BMW scene and FEMTO was still the only unlock at that time, I would absolutely begin by researching for conflicts in compatibility in the genuine piggybacks on the market. The thing is that stock ECU hardware got very good through the 2000s and flash tuning basically killed off piggyback tuning. I doubt the piggyback hardware has advanced or updated much to keep up with the latest OEM engine controls. But some of them were decently programmable and might be able to work anyway. In 2004 or 2005 I used a HKS FCON V Pro standalone, as a piggyback, to take full control over the injectors and coils; and used programmable outputs to emulate typical sensor readings to the ECU to keep the check engine lights away but needed the stock ecu in there to run so many things. That’s like an extreme form of piggyback tuning. There used to be devices like the Emanage Ult that had internal injector and coil drivers and you could fully tune tables that applied the changes in series behind the ECU.

With the locked ECUs and EPA attacking US based tuning software suites, I’ve definitely been wondering if the piggyback manufacturers are going to update their game and make a comeback.

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

You are making two claims

1- the Jb4 is only a boost controller:

The statement is incorrect. I provided an example demonstrating how the JB4 actually manipulates timing.

While it's completely acceptable if you disagree with how it achieves this, it doesn't dismiss the fact that this functionality exists.

A boost controller as the name implies, only controls boost. The Jb4 has access to control other parameters.
This is a fact, not an opinion, whether you wish to accept it or not.

2- the JB4 is not a tuner


In my opinion, any modification towards exacting more power from the DME is tuning. This holds true whether you use a basic boost controller or a full flash tune.


On this one it's a matter of personal opinion and terminology to what each considers a tuner. We'll have to agree to disagree:thumbs-up:

Disingenuous horseshit my friend. Or absolutely ignorant. It’s hard to tell from here. Whichever it is, it’s comical to a tuner. I think it’s clear that you lack a firm grasp on the concept of tuning. Snake oil tooner (salesman).

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

Disingenuous horseshit my friend. Or absolutely ignorant. It’s hard to tell from here. Whichever it is, it’s comical to a tuner. I think it’s clear that you lack a firm grasp on the concept of tuning. Snake oil tooner (salesman).

that perfectly sums up your communication skills.

[6speed_M2]

The high flow cat is such an underrated mod.

The increased turbo response, power and sounds without having the smelly smelly from the catless downpipe is everything.

[viperx100]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

The high flow cat is such an underrated mod.

The increased turbo response, power and sounds without having the smelly smelly from the catless downpipe is everything.

I always liked the catted downpipe over catless. No smelly-smelly like you said, no CEL / emission issues (if you get a quality one like AA), negligible difference in power gains unless you are building some Stage 3 monster. I had a COBB catted one on my 2013 335is (stock exhaust) and loved it as well. Great deeper sound, increased power, and who would say no to a quicker spool / turbo response?

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

perfectly sums up your debate skills

I know when to cut the line with a lost cause.

It’s not worth spending the rest of my day arguing with someone who is either sitting atop the peak of mount stupid (refer to dunning kruger effect), or willing to lie and gaslight and run in circles to avoid the truth.

Whatever it is, you’re not the type of guy I’d want to continue reciprocating with. So, just enjoy your Tooning career without my continued protest.

[6speed_M2]

viperx100 I couldn’t agree more.

I was catless on my N55 M2 for a few years. There’s nothing like the sound of a no res/cat set up, but after awhile and a more aggressive tune (I’m not sure if that made it worse) I couldn’t stand the smell anymore.

I purchased the HJS 300 high flow cat for my car. I believe it was the only 300 cell high flow cat for the N55. I also wasn’t a fan of the stock cat.

The response was terrible, it was way too muted and I know this doesn’t make sense, but I felt like I had MORE drone with the stock cat versus the high flow cat.

It’s one of the best mods you can do, no doubt

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

I know when to cut the line with a lost cause.

It’s not worth spending the rest of my day arguing with someone who is either sitting atop the peak of mount stupid (refer to dunning kruger effect), or willing to lie and gaslight and run in circles to avoid the truth.

Whatever it is, you’re not the type of guy I’d want to continue reciprocating with. So, just enjoy your Tooning career without my continued protest.

You claim to be a tuner, I think you should post your shop's name and address.

With the way you carried yourself today, I'm sure you will get a lot of interested customers.

And if they disagree with you, you can call them stupid and kick them out.

[viperx100]

Originally Posted by 6speed_M2

viperx100 I couldn’t agree more.

I was catless on my N55 M2 for a few years. There’s nothing like the sound of a no res/cat set up, but after awhile and a more aggressive tune (I’m not sure if that made it worse) I couldn’t stand the smell anymore.

I purchased the HJS 300 high flow cat for my car. I believe it was the only 300 cell high flow cat for the N55. I also wasn’t a fan of the stock cat.

The response was terrible, it was way too muted and I know this doesn’t make sense, but I felt like I had MORE drone with the stock cat versus the high flow cat.

It’s one of the best mods you can do, no doubt

I remember the day that the COBB DP arrived for my N54. It was like a work of art!

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

You claim to be a tuner, I think you should post your shop's name and address.

With the way you carried yourself today, I'm sure you will get a lot of interested customers.

And if they disagree with you, you can call them stupid and kick them out.

I moved into engineering and manufacturing 10 years ago. I only tune my own cars and occasionally close friends. I sold my dyno in late 2000s. Being a (real) tuner is a technical career I hold in high regard, and it is no part-time bench warming endeavor. While I have greater hands on experience and technical aptitude for the nuances of tuning than everyday salesman in this industry, to call myself a tuner at this point in my life is nearly as big a joke as calling a JB4 tuner a tuner at all.

My customers respect and value my utmost open honesty and transparency with advice regarding their projects, and countless of them continue to come to me for project consulting long beyond ever buying anything from me.

I’ve had a lot of customers ask me silly questions but I don’t have anything negative to say to them about it, because they aren’t masquerading as a tuner or industry professional that reads like a used car salesman.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

I moved into engineering and manufacturing 10 years ago. I only tune my own cars and occasionally close friends. I sold my dyno in late 2000s. Being a (real) tuner is a technical career I hold in high regard, and it is no part-time bench warning endeavor. While I have greater hands on experience and technical aptitude for the nuances of tuning than everyday salesman in this industry, to call myself a tuner at this point in my life is nearly as big a joke as calling a JB4 tuner a tuner at all.

My customers respect and value my utmost open honesty and transparency with advice regarding their projects, and countless of them continue to come to me for project consulting long beyond ever buying anything from me.

I’ve had a lot of customers ask me silly questions but I don’t have anything negative to say to them about it, because they aren’t masquerading as a tuner or industry professional that reads like a used car salesman.

As much as I'd love to continue this conversation, all good things must come to an end.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

I know when to cut the line with a lost cause.

It’s not worth spending the rest of my day arguing with someone who is either sitting atop the peak of mount stupid (refer to dunning kruger effect), or willing to lie and gaslight and run in circles to avoid the truth.

Whatever it is, you’re not the type of guy I’d want to continue reciprocating with. So, just enjoy your Tooning career without my continued protest.

Are you really going to take issue with everyone that calls JB4 a "tune" or "tuner"? You'd have a case if he was calling a magazine a clip, but even then I know what people are talking about and let it slide. In this case the car is literally being 'tuned'

Popular Science defines 'tuning' as: Tuning an engine is tweaking certain variables to enhance performance. Are you going to suggest the JB4 does not accomplish this?

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Are you really going to take issue with everyone that calls JB4 a "tune" or "tuner"? You'd have a case if he was calling a magazine a clip, but even then I know what people are talking about and let it slide. In this case the car is literally being 'tuned'

Popular Science defines 'tuning' as: Tuning an engine is tweaking certain variables to enhance performance. Are you going to suggest the JB4 does not accomplish this?

Calling a magazine a clip isn't being disingenuous or dodgy.

The variables that the JB4 tweaks is boost. Hence being a boost controller. The category of boost controllers has been around for a very long time, to distinguish the type of device a JB4 is from a tuner.

The way a JB4 works, actually puts your tuning further out of wack, not closer. It manipulates sensor data to allow an overboost condition. The stock DME tuning uses what is called o2 feedback and short/long term fuel trims to correct the lean condition caused by the overboost condition. The stock DME also has what is called a knock feedback to correct the over advanced ignition timing caused by the JB4. Any professional tuner who looks at this device would absolutely cringe at calling it "tuning".

So you could actually call the JB4 an UNTUNER and be more accurate If you have a perfectly tuned guitar, and I came up and totally fucked the tuning pegs until it sounds like shit... you'd still say I tuned it because I effected its tune, for better or worse. Thats what JB4 does... and the stock DME protection strategies is the engine control version of "Auto Tune" coming in to save the day after JB4 made a complete shit show of the actual tuning.

You are really stretching here. Its really just not a tuner. You can pretend it is because it sorta has some shitty effect on the tuning... but this is just not what anyone has in mind when they think of tuning. And you are just contributing to the disinformation and misleading consumers who actually believe a JB4 is *really* TUNING. When its not.

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Are you really going to take issue with everyone that calls JB4 a "tune" or "tuner"? You'd have a case if he was calling a magazine a clip, but even then I know what people are talking about and let it slide. In this case the car is literally being 'tuned'

Popular Science defines 'tuning' as: Tuning an engine is tweaking certain variables to enhance performance. Are you going to suggest the JB4 does not accomplish this?

Lets say you unlocked your ECU and flashed with BM3 and scheduled a tuning appointment. You show up for tuning and the tuner says, "Here is my tuning strategy: I am going to jack your boost super high. Then, I am going to go into your fuel tables and make it lean everywhere in boost, and I am going to go into your ignition tables and just over-advance your timing everywhere. And Voilà, you are tuned!!!". That is what you're getting from a JB4. And just like using a JB4, the engine protection strategies are going to clean up retroactively. But I *really* dont think/believe that this what you had in mind when you scheduled the tuning appointment. But HEY, its still tuning right?

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

Calling a magazine a clip isn't being disingenuous or dodgy.

The variables that the JB4 tweaks is boost. Hence being a boost controller. The category of boost controllers has been around for a very long time, to distinguish the type of device a JB4 is from a tuner.

The way a JB4 works, actually puts your tuning further out of wack, not closer. It manipulates sensor data to allow an overboost condition. The stock DME tuning uses what is called o2 feedback and short/long term fuel trims to correct the lean condition caused by the overboost condition. The stock DME also has what is called a knock feedback to correct the over advanced ignition timing caused by the JB4. Any professional tuner who looks at this device would absolutely cringe at calling it "tuning".

So you could actually call the JB4 an UNTUNER and be more accurate If you have a perfectly tuned guitar, and I came up and totally fucked the tuning pegs until it sounds like shit... you'd still say I tuned it because I effected its tune, for better or worse. Thats what JB4 does... and the stock DME protection strategies is the engine control version of "Auto Tune" coming in to save the day after JB4 made a complete shit show of the actual tuning.

You are really stretching here. Its really just not a tuner. You can pretend it is because it sorta has some shitty effect on the tuning... but this is just not what anyone has in mind when they think of tuning. And you are just contributing to the disinformation and misleading consumers who actually believe a JB4 is *really* TUNING. When its not.

Reading your posts I would think someone that's never mod'd a car would come away believing the JB4 will never make it on the market and virtually everyone that installs it will have serious engine damage sooner than later. However, we both know that's not the case. It's an extremely popular and successful product with many repeat customers as they change cars or upgrade over the years.

If it was truly a 'hack job' this sort of success wouldn't be realistic. Granted, much of the success is because our ECU's are locked and the flash option isn't realistic for many people, but I'd bet a large percentage of customers would just stick to the JB4 even if flashing became more obtainable. I've had professional tunes done on a STi and a Shelby GT500 (drove from TX to KS for the recommended tuner) and while I loved the results, both were a PITA compared to the ease of the JB4.

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Reading your posts I would think someone that's never mod'd a car would come away believing the JB4 will never make it on the market and virtually everyone that installs it will have serious engine damage sooner than later. However, we both know that's not the case. It's an extremely popular and successful product with many repeat customers as they change cars or upgrade over the years.

If it was truly a 'hack job' this sort of success wouldn't be realistic. Granted, much of the success is because our ECU's are locked and the flash option isn't realistic for many people, but I'd bet a large percentage of customers would just stick to the JB4 even if flashing became more obtainable. I've had professional tunes done on a STi and a Shelby GT500 (drove from TX to KS for the recommended tuner) and while I loved the results, both were a PITA compared to the ease of the JB4.

The JB4 itself is a hack job and it’s success depends ENTIRELY on the engine protection strategies which are very advanced these days. Use a device like the JB4 on an older car and it wouldn’t make it 5 pulls.

A boost controller is still a boost controller. Just because BMWs modern tuning and protection strategies allows you to pull it off; does not make it a tuner.

When you run a JB4 you are running entirely stock tuning; with the protection strategies being constantly leaned on.

Just accept it and give BMW and BOSCH the credit where due… they are the reason your car hasn’t blown up while JB4 does it’s best to try.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

The JB4 itself is a hack job and it’s success depends ENTIRELY on the engine protection strategies which are very advanced these days. Use a device like the JB4 on an older car and it wouldn’t make it 5 pulls.

A boost controller is still a boost controller. Just because BMWs modern tuning and protection strategies allows you to pull it off; does not make it a tuner.

When you run a JB4 you are running entirely stock tuning; with the protection strategies being constantly leaned on.

Just accept it and give BMW and BOSCH the credit where due… they are the reason your car hasn’t blown up while JB4 does it’s best to try.

I'll absolutely give BMW and BOSCH their rightful credit, and I'll give Burger credit for making a product that understands teamwork. That's essentially what this marriage is - teamwork. Even bmwtuning.co loves the JB4, and they would not sing its praise if it performed like a 'hack job', which is temporarily functional but not necessarily reliable.

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Reading your posts I would think someone that's never mod'd a car would come away believing the JB4 will never make it on the market and virtually everyone that installs it will have serious engine damage sooner than later. However, we both know that's not the case. It's an extremely popular and successful product with many repeat customers as they change cars or upgrade over the years.

If it was truly a 'hack job' this sort of success wouldn't be realistic. Granted, much of the success is because our ECU's are locked and the flash option isn't realistic for many people, but I'd bet a large percentage of customers would just stick to the JB4 even if flashing became more obtainable. I've had professional tunes done on a STi and a Shelby GT500 (drove from TX to KS for the recommended tuner) and while I loved the results, both were a PITA compared to the ease of the JB4.

Let’s try another approach.

Can we agree a boost controller is not a tuner? I think so, right?

Can we agree that a data logger is not a tuner? For sure, right?

Now here’s the tricky one that seems to be muddying the waters for you. What if we just bypass a temp sensor and send it steady voltage to make the ECU believe the air temp is hot so it pulls a couple degrees of timing. Is that tuning? Is that realllllllly tuning? I don’t know man… I don’t know… we’re definitely stretching though aren’t we. You call your car “tuned” because of that? I guess man, if that qualifies for you... but it’s certainly not what the majority has in mind when they were told they were being tuned.

[PNTDG42]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

I'll absolutely give BMW and BOSCH their rightful credit, and I'll give Burger credit for making a product that understands teamwork. That's essentially what this marriage is - teamwork. Even bmwtuning.co loves the JB4, and they would not sing its praise if it performed like a 'hack job', which is temporarily functional but not necessarily reliable.

I can greatly appreciate the ole’ ignorance is bliss perspective on the matter

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

Let’s try another approach.

Can we agree a boost controller is not a tuner? I think so, right?

Can we agree that a data logger is not a tuner? For sure, right?

Now here’s the tricky one that seems to be muddying the waters for you. What if we just bypass a temp sensor and send it steady voltage to make the ECU believe the air temp is hot so it pulls a couple degrees of timing. Is that tuning? Is that realllllllly tuning? I don’t know man… I don’t know… we’re definitely stretching though aren’t we. You call your car “tuned” because of that? I guess man, if that qualifies for you...

No, I do not say my car is tuned. But if someone asks me if my car is tuned I'll say not flash tuned but it has a JB4. Does that meet your approval?