05-10-2023, 06:38 PM | #67 | |
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We have the dyno graphs; there's no need to speculate: F87 is significantly torquier down low, but I think most people here would trade that for the G87's power curve any day of the week. |
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05-10-2023, 06:38 PM | #68 |
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05-10-2023, 06:51 PM | #70 |
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Data, data, data….
This entire post thread started as a pinion piece . My opinion, no science and certainly no data. Lots of data out there to review but it had nothing to do with my opinion.
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05-10-2023, 07:31 PM | #71 | |
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Yes, you’ll have to downshift to get the most out of the S58. Isn’t that desirable for someone who bought this car to manually shift it? |
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05-10-2023, 07:41 PM | #72 |
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If I were in the market for a new sports coupe, I think I’d get the G87. F87 is not a good value on the used car market. Even M2C with 20k miles are selling at near MSRP. And the CS sellers are just not reading the market.
Not sure that I’d trade the F87 for the G87 though. That’s like divorcing your wife and celebrating by marrying her uglier, fatter sister. |
05-10-2023, 07:45 PM | #73 |
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05-10-2023, 08:08 PM | #74 | |
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In the E and F era, if we are talking about everything derived from the N54 (inline 6 turbocharged), I think there isn't that much difference in "character." The biggest difference is the turbo lag (dual scroll single turbo vs dual turbo) and how the boost is tuned in. Unless you are talking specifically about the S65? In that case, sure, that V8 did have a special character. Unfortunately, it could not meet european emissions standards. |
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05-10-2023, 08:34 PM | #75 | |
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2 x N54 -> 1 x N55 -> 1 x S55-> 1 x B58
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05-10-2023, 08:39 PM | #76 | |
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05-10-2023, 08:40 PM | #77 | |
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05-10-2023, 08:52 PM | #78 | |
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I'm eagerly awaiting the G87 CS/CSL, and will get that car with the ZF8 for sure. To be clear, the 6MT is an excellent choice, as well. It's electric when you really push it. Reminds me of some of the thrill drives I used to take in my E46 M. |
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05-11-2023, 01:19 AM | #82 | |
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People said similar things about the F8X in that changing between gears in the manual variants was sluggish vs. manual because of the turbo lag. Other cars do the same thing based turbo configuration. Pulling from 4th gear like that isn’t entirely realistic, but it was to illustrate a point, a point which they praised the AT for being superior. People are way too sensitive. |
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05-11-2023, 03:31 AM | #84 | |
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It's irresponsible to put something out there without 1) sufficient context to back it up or 2) making it clear it's a joke. They did neither, it was sloppy AF. As evidence by the misinformed comments in this forum after that video, it really did mislead some people, even to the point of thinking the G87 was defective so they shouldn't buy it. In that sense the video did damage, it ain't about being "sensitive." I mean, even you seemed to misunderstand. It's not, strictly speaking, turbo lag. It's boost threshold and gearing ratios and sweet spots in the powerband. Similar, but different from turbo lag. And yes, this leads to followups about linear vs non-linear power delivery and pros and cons of tall and short gears and low-end vs. top end power other nuances etc. etc. And I know people don't want an essay about the fine points of engines and driving in a dumb youtube video. BUT, my point is, if you aren't going to get into the nuance, best not open that can of worms. Because you are gonna do more harm than good. And that's why what TH did was bad. SG, by contrast, properly supplied much more context with their critiques, and for that reason I have no beef with them. Last edited by Squidget; 05-11-2023 at 03:58 AM.. |
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05-11-2023, 03:41 AM | #85 |
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As an example, all TH needed to do was say something like:
"Like many track-oriented engines, the G87's motor is tuned to deliver maximum power at high RPMs, all the way to redline. Street-oriented engines like in the F87 are tuned to deliver more power at the low end, but less at the high end. So if you are coming from street cars or the F87, you have to adjust. To tap all of the G87's power, you must keep the revs higher and shift frequently. If this sounds like too much work, we recommend you get the automatic." There. Done. Everything an underinformed viewer needed to know to make an actual informed decision. TH didn't need to do a dumb 4th gear thing. Last edited by Squidget; 05-11-2023 at 03:58 AM.. |
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05-11-2023, 03:57 AM | #86 | |
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Since I'm feeling especially "teach-y" today.
For anyone who doesn't know the difference between turbo lag and boost threshold, here's a primer that may help. (Disclaimer: it has some simplifications.) Especially note the parts about how boost is RPM-dependent, that's the key point: Quote:
*well, more sense to the novice. For the non-novice, they make less sense. The G87 boot thresholds chosen by BMW seem weird (different from the G8x), and we'd like to understand why. Last edited by Squidget; 05-11-2023 at 04:19 AM.. |
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05-11-2023, 05:37 AM | #87 |
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I’m not at all surprised that some feel like the G87 is a better driving experience. My first M car was the holy grail E46 M3. My tuned 135i with coilovers and LSD was more fun to drive. The F87 CS is much more fun.
Not hard to believe that the G87 auto with the next gen engine and adaptive suspension feels like a better experience. Even with increasing size, weight and drastic design changes, BMW seems to get the small cars better with every generation. I can’t remember if The Straight Pipes said they liked the F87 CS better or if they just thought it looks better. I’ll also be interested to see how EVO compares the G87 to their 2020 COTY. The Conti AS tires might be the weak point, but it may not have made a difference in the final result. I may pick up a G87 in the next couple of years, but I’m not selling the CS any time soon. |
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05-11-2023, 06:31 AM | #88 |
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G87 looks much better in my opinion.
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