[Ehloo]

Unlike previous gen M chassis there was a duct in the center grill section that pushed fresh air into the intake box. The front grill section is now completely enclosed. There is an intake tube that leads right behind the headlight and not sure if that provides much flow at all.

i don’t believe any of the cheaper aftermarket intakes offering remedy the issue and a lot of shops recommend cutting a hole on the side of the interior front grill section to pull fresh air in. Same process as installing front mount intakes

but i have been intrigued with the product offerings off Aliexpress and found this intake scoop. carbon fiber and pricey but looks like a great solution. it appears that it would connect to the oem tube.

hopefully they drop in price or made in abs to make it more reasonable

[TallGibbs]

Need someone to get thermocouple data measurements of the air from the two spots you mention (current OEM air inlet) and the proposed air intake.

Other analysis option: is there OEM data logging available or that shows air inlet temp (just after the airbox) that we can compare to outside ambient air temp? That would give a better idea of what opportunity exists.

[TallGibbs]

Or super simple option after 20-30 minutes of driving just pull over and measure the temp of the OEM intake pipe? That will tell you how much heat load/soak it picked up during driving.

[Dave07997S]

They should just make one with ABS plastics and cut down the cost. Who is going to see that CF in there?

[TallGibbs]

Actually the write up by Eventuri seems to have fairly solid temp data: https://www.eventuri.net/products/bmw-g80-g82-m3-m4/

Of course, if you can always best practice to verify some data yourself as any company selling products is vested in having the data support their claims.

[Ehloo]

carbon fiber is actually much cheaper to produce that ABS. that’s why we don’t see much ABS options

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

They should just make one with ABS plastics and cut down the cost. Who is going to see that CF in there?

[Ehloo]

i understand data reveals a lot but common sense will tell you with the current design there is no source for air flow. i saw this first hand installing my DRL and watching videos on YT. most modern high performance engines have very well designed intake systems and there is little need for an aftermarket system beside increasing sound.

the oem airflow tube literally sits behind the headlight. maybe there is some flow coming in but it’s not obvious.

i have ran front mount intakes n my m8, f82 M4 and X5m and i could feel a significant difference in throttle response and increased power. that would prob be what i do on the m2 but just putting it out there for a mod that hasn’t been discussed yet

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Ehloo

carbon fiber is actually much cheaper to produce that ABS. that’s why we don’t see much ABS options

Only on limited quantities, once you get over a few hundred units, ABS is a lot cheaper per unit once the tooling is amortised. Hand laid-up carbon fibre pre-preg has a high labour cost per unit and production isn’t easily automated unless done by top-end robots which are a lot more expensive than injection moulding tools.

Most of the “cheap” carbon fibre items are not 100% carbon fibre anyway, they are either a single layer of carbon fibre bonded to a plastic substrate, carbon fibre over glass fibre, or just a carbon fibre-effect plastic film on a plastic substrate (100% carbon fibre-free )

[Ehloo]

labor is cheap overseas and for a hidden part like this air ducts i’m not expecting an amazing finish. aftermarket automotive parts is a cut throat industry. Come up with an idea, sell as many as you can and someone else copying it for even cheaper. i agree if you are mass producing the raw materials and labor is much cheaper.

let’s be honest, this specific part will maybe sell 100 worldwide from all retailers.

back to the original topic. the intakes need better flow from outside. cutting a side hole inside the grill area will help. might not be the optimal flow but it should help

Originally Posted by aerobod

Only on limited quantities, once you get over a few hundred units, ABS is a lot cheaper per unit once the tooling is amortised. Hand laid-up carbon fibre pre-preg has a high labour cost per unit and production isn’t easily automated unless done by top-end robots which are a lot more expensive than injection moulding tools.

Most of the “cheap” carbon fibre items are not 100% carbon fibre anyway, they are either a single layer of carbon fibre bonded to a plastic substrate, carbon fibre over glass fibre, or just a carbon fibre-effect plastic film on a plastic substrate (100% carbon fibre-free )

[TallGibbs]

Doesn't this chart by CSF for their improved charge air cooler show that the intake air temp really has minimal impact on actual charged air density (post intercooler/charge air cooler)? Sure, colder is ALWAYS better but how many decimal places are we going out??

https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=2005328

They have an excellent graph about 2/3 of the way down their writing showing the OEM charge air cooler performance. Basically, the real equipment that matters for cooling the air before it actually enters the cylinders is the charge air cooler and the radiator for the charge air cooler (which has direct ambient air cooling it, no engine bay heat). Sure seems like the even if the OEM air intake filter is heat soaked, the charge cooler is knocking that temperature out anyways.

With a 314 degree intake air temperature increase (80 deg up to 394 deg on the OEM system), the post-cooler intake air only increased by 20 degrees.

This leads me to believe a "cold air intake" is not having a significant effect on charge air density because the intercooler is still what dictates actual air density just before entering combustion chambers.

Any improvements in horsepower due to air intake systems are going to more impacted by flow efficiency than air temps.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Ehloo

labor is cheap overseas and for a hidden part like this air ducts i’m not expecting an amazing finish. aftermarket automotive parts is a cut throat industry. Come up with an idea, sell as many as you can and someone else copying it for even cheaper. i agree if you are mass producing the raw materials and labor is much cheaper.

let’s be honest, this specific part will maybe sell 100 worldwide from all retailers.

back to the original topic. the intakes need better flow from outside. cutting a side hole inside the grill area will help. might not be the optimal flow but it should help

Even with cheap labour, it wouldn’t be worth doing a production run at 100 units for carbon fibre, you still need a form to be produced. I would expect quite a lot more than 100 would be sold from all vendors sticking their logo on it, the S58 engined cars that this will fit will have about 250,000 vehicles produced over the model lifespan.

In terms of the BMW design of intake for the S58, so far no vendor has shown any measurable power change with a stock engine and aftermarket intake. The turbo adiabatic compression will cause a temperature rise of 100C or so, so a few degrees drop from a cold air intake doesn’t make a measurable difference to air that will be sent through the intercooler anyway. The flow restriction from the inlet size is also not really relevant due to the target boost pressure in both stock and modified engines being hit across the whole rev range, so obviously the stock inlet size is large enough.

Overall on a stock engine a change in noise and a placebo affect on power is what an aftermarket intake will give on the S58 turbo installation, unlike the effect on a naturally aspirated engine with a larger cold air intake that is carefully designed. Ram air intakes are not really that useful on a turbo installation.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by Ehloo

back to the original topic. the intakes need better flow from outside.

Does it tho? What has led you to believe that there's something wrong?

[TallGibbs]

aerobod thank you! You confirmed what I was thinking….its been too many years since my Thermo and Heat Transfer classes and happy to see we reached the same conclusion.

[Ehloo]

the fact that there is no little or no fresh air pulling into the intake. most of the air is pulling from the engine bay. Have you personally seen the intake and the air tube. it sits behind the head light

watch some front mount intake install videos. every shop discovers the same thing. a air tube that goes no where

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

Does it tho? What has led you to believe that there's something wrong?

[aerobod]

The unrestricted path to the stock air intake is mainly through the front grilles around the edge of the radiator. The higher pressure air coming into the grilles will reach the intake in preference to flow from the stagnant air in the engine compartment.

There are also 2 significant problems with the air intake in this thread:

- With the restricted throat size to get around the edge of the radiator, the minimum intake area will be smaller than stock. With a turbo engine providing significant suction on the intake, this may restrict flow. As previously stated, air ram effect and any venturi effect from the restricted throat have little to no benefit on a turbo engine compared with a naturally aspirated one.

- At lower speeds the significant area of the radiator that this aftermarket intake blocks may cause cooling issues

Overall there doesn’t seem to have been much thought or engineering or testing that has gone into the product. I would rate it “snake oil” without some appropriate test results.

[JABCAT]

It's as if BMW should hire forum members to engineer their next vehicles. I'm sure they did thorough testing of the current design & we already know the car makes more power than advertised.

Other than increases in noise & maybe a little snappier throttle response, I haven't seen any significant power increases from any intake system on any of my performance cars for the last 25+ years. I still install aftermarket intake systems, but I don't expect anything from them. And I'm definitely not paying $3k for one.

[Ehloo]

but that’s my point. there is no air flow from behind the front grills. it’s completely closed off unlike previous M’s where they had some type of air duct feeding into the tube to the air box. this Ali Express part is nothing new. It’s basically what BMW included before but with a much larger opening and now connected to the stock intake tube and into the airbox

i did another inspection and the only possible airflow is the air that hits the front vertical radiator which will deflect upwards into the engine bay and the intake tube is pulling air from the engine bay. Whether that is sufficient or not it’s hard to say.

but you make a good point that the s58 makes plenty of power and underrated. maybe that’s the reason they didn’t make the opening in the grill to reduce more power.

i have seen some intakes make 10-20 hp to the wheels. If there was a well designed max performance design maybe the S58 would make too much power for its own good

so this is a not a snake oil product unless you feel bmw design is considered snake oil.

cars today are making too much and EU emissions regulations come into play. i have a strong feeling this had a lot to do with the design. So maybe not poor design but designed with intent to produce less power

this “poor intake” design is the same on all G8x platforms

Originally Posted by aerobod

The unrestricted path to the stock air intake is mainly through the front grilles around the edge of the radiator. The higher pressure air coming into the grilles will reach the intake in preference to flow from the stagnant air in the engine compartment.

There are also 2 significant problems with the air intake in this thread:

- With the restricted throat size to get around the edge of the radiator, the minimum intake area will be smaller than stock. With a turbo engine providing significant suction on the intake, this may restrict flow. As previously stated, air ram effect and any venturi effect from the restricted throat have little to no benefit on a turbo engine compared with a naturally aspirated one.

- At lower speeds the significant area of the radiator that this aftermarket intake blocks may cause cooling issues

Overall there doesn’t seem to have been much thought or engineering or testing that has gone into the product. I would rate it “snake oil” without some appropriate test results.

[TallGibbs]

Ehloo I think you missed the point I was trying to make…..bringing in colder air is only a marginal improvement. The charge air cooler is doing all the cooling after the turbocharger compresses that hot air. It doesn’t REALLY matter if you start with ambient air or hot engine bay air. The charge air cooler is taking the temp out anyways.

Any Hp improvements from intake are achieved from reducing flow restrictions.

To have any meaningful impact you really need colder air feeding the charge air cooler and that radiator is already down low in the bumper exposed to the coldest ambient air.

[Ehloo]

i see your point but my argument is all M’s and even just turbo cars have their charged coolers in direct air flow already. Maybe not as fully exposed as the m2 but that’s marginal. There must be a reason why everyone markets their intakes as “cold air” intakes and why people argue in engine bay intakes don’t perform as well. Colder air is more dense and we know how our cars perform on a nice chilly morning compared to a 100 degree day. I say the starting air temp will make a difference. The charge cooler can only do so much

if we go back historically to all previous M’s
that were forced induced engines we will see all the intakes had some sort of ducting for fresh air. So why is the s58 different

Originally Posted by TallGibbs

Ehloo I think you missed the point I was trying to make…..bringing in colder air is only a marginal improvement. The charge air cooler is doing all the cooling after the turbocharger compresses that hot air. It doesn’t REALLY matter if you start with ambient air or hot engine bay air. The charge air cooler is taking the temp out anyways.

Any Hp improvements from intake are achieved from reducing flow restrictions.

To have any meaningful impact you really need colder air feeding the charge air cooler and that radiator is already down low in the bumper exposed to the coldest ambient air.

[TallGibbs]

On cold chilly mornings the charge air cooler is at a lower temp so the “final” product is cooled to a lower temp because of that.

Yes, it he air intake exposed to colder helps as well but as the CPM data shows it is the charge air cooler doing the vast majority of the work.

Companies selling intakes are in the business of selling intakes so they tell you it helps but rarely publish temp data because the data does not support the claim.

[BradMX5]

Would you buy a cold air intake or a hot air intake?
That's the reason most market them as cold air intakes.

[TallGibbs]

Originally Posted by BradMX5

Would you buy a cold air intake or a hot air intake?
That's the reason most market them as cold air intakes.

Well stated, much more succinctly than me 😀
Also, I do believe there is some merit to an aftermarket intake system. My belief is you want to understand what you are buying which is why I find it super helpful to see actual data.

I hope someday to put an aftermarket intake on my car but I want to be confident I understand why I’m buying (as part of a full power package improvement) and recognize where it’s benefits actually contribute.