[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Ah ok.

I don’t think many 62k M2s will be built.
The same way, not many 82k Caymans are built. How many options until it’s 100k?

And it’ll still be a weekend fun car/track toy… you can daily it if you’re single, and at that point why would you buy an M2 anyway???
Maybe for more straight line performance…

I edited my other post, please check that for why I want the M2.
Looks like Porsche increased the base price yet again. Last time I checked a GTS 4.0 started at 85K and Cayman S at around 72K.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I edited my other post, please check that for why I want the M2.
Looks like Porsche increased the base price yet again. Last time I checked a GTS 4.0 started at 85K and Cayman S at around 72K.

They are completely out there, yeah… you should check Canada LOL. The GTS starts at 112… the 911 GTS is like 215…

And I think you guys in the US still pay ADM… which makes these Porsches even worse. They’re very niche.

(We don’t pay ADM in Canada for any car/brand)

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

75+15. Please read my post!

Why? Nobody needs to spend $9,000 on carbon fiber to drive an M2. You’re making up arbitrary bullshit. Please go buy a Cayman so you can spend an extra $4,000 on powered seats.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Why? Nobody needs to spend $9,000 on carbon fiber to drive an M2. You’re making up arbitrary bullshit. Please go buy a Cayman so you can spend an extra $4,000 on powered seats.

Everyone's needs are different. Maybe it isn't cross-shoppable for others, but it is for me. What's so hard to understand about that?

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Everyone's needs are different. Maybe it isn't cross-shoppable for others, but it is for me. What's so hard to understand about that?

Go buy a Cayman then. Lol. Don’t come here and make up nonsense about how $15,000 over an M2 gets you a GTS 4.0 when in reality it buys you a base Cayman S with zero options for $80,000.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Go buy a Cayman then. Lol. Don’t come here and make up nonsense about how $15,000 over an M2 gets you a GTS 4.0 when in reality it buys you a base Cayman S with zero options for $80,000.

You need to pay more attention to details. I never claimed a base GTS 4.0 is 15K over a "base M2" with zero options. I simply said, and implied, that 15K over M2 that suits me is very cross-shoppable with other compelling Cayman models.
I also stated in my other post why I consider M2 in my shortlist, and it's not just price. Maybe it is for some.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by frostyrwd

Idk what you’re on about, not everyone has to worry about backseats…plenty of folks daily drive Caymans/911s

I'd argue that it's silly to cross-shop 2 seaters against 4 seaters. If you only need 2 seats, I don't know why M2 would be on your shopping list, at all. There are variety of 2 seaters that give you better bang-for-buck, from Miatas on the low end to p-cars on the high end.

I actually like the 718, it's a very capable car even with a 4 banger. But it's IMO absolutely not competing with the M2.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

You need to pay more attention to details. I never claimed a base GTS 4.0 is 15K over a "base M2" with zero options. I simply said, and implied, that 15K over M2 that suits me is very cross-shoppable with other compelling Cayman models.
I also stated in my other post why I consider M2 in my shortlist, and it's not just price. Maybe it is for some.

That’s great. It doesn’t change the fact that an M2 starts at $62,200, vs a Cayman S at $80,000 and a Cayman GTS at $95,000. You’re straight up making up numbers when the difference is nearly $30,000 unless you plan to be stuck with a 4 banger.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

You seem to be confusing me with the other dude, I'm the guy who brought the heritage and price point discussion.

I have a Macan already, so I don't need a one-car-do-it-all vehicle when looking for a manual sports coupe, hence the future MT availability discussion. I've owned BMW Ms for ages because I loved their powertrains, but they took a recent turn to appeal to average Joes rather than people who look for that 1% more.

You are right, I did confuse you two, but he called me stupid, you didn’t. Thanks!!

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I'd argue that it's silly to cross-shop 2 seaters against 4 seaters. If you only need 2 seats, I don't know why M2 would be on your shopping list, at all. There are variety of 2 seaters that give you better sports-car-for-buck, from Miatas on the low end to p-cars on the high end.

I actually like the 718, it's a very capable car even with a 4 banger. But it's IMO absolutely not competing with the M2.

Based on this post, there are primarily two demographics:

1. Buying M2 for 90% fun and 10% practicality(more value on fun)
2. Buying M2 for 60% fun and 40% practicality(more value on practicality)

1. is generally for people who have multiple cars and 2. is for those who want one-car-do-it-all. I don't think it's silly comparison at all, because what people look for in these cars is different.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Based on this post, there are primarily two demographics:

1. Buying M2 for 90% fun and 10% practicality(more value on fun)
2. Buying M2 for 60% fun and 40% practicality(more value on practicality)

1. is generally for people who have multiple cars and 2. is for those who want one-car-do-it-all. I don't think it's silly comparison at all, because what people look for in these cars is different.

Question from a #2 guy:
If your focus is 90% on fun, why is the M2 a more compelling offer than the Cayman?

Honest quwstion.

I think I’d be in a Cayman if I was cross shopping these cars.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

That’s great. It doesn’t change the fact that an M2 starts at $62,200, vs a Cayman S at $80,000 and a Cayman GTS at $95,000. You’re straight up making up numbers when the difference is nearly $30,000 unless you plan to be stuck with a 4 banger.

So you are making ad hominem claims based on the incorrect premises..?

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

That’s great. It doesn’t change the fact that an M2 starts at $62,200, vs a Cayman S at $80,000 and a Cayman GTS at $95,000. You’re straight up making up numbers when the difference is nearly $30,000 unless you plan to be stuck with a 4 banger.

I gotta agree with Ravenseal here. You can't just add arbitrary numbers onto the base M2. ESPECIALLY when the base Cayman is missing a lot of features, and options are incredibly expensive. The M2 has a ton of standard features*, and relatively few options. And what it has are not Porsche-level expensive.

*in USA anyway

When you start talking options, the price gap between the M2 and Caymans only gets wider.

I just don't think there's any world where an apples-to-apples comparison has these car within $20K of each other. Doesn't strike me as a legit cross shop.

I mean, if I had a $90K+ budget, I wouldn't have bought an M2, is all I'm sayin.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Question from a #2 guy:
If your focus is 90% on fun, why is the M2 a more compelling offer than the Cayman?

Honest quwstion.

I think I’d be in a Cayman if I was cross shopping these cars.

Great question and how this discussion should have gone in the first place.
1. For those who are able to handle the extra weight (in whichever way: weight reduction, suspension tuning, etc..) S58 engine is a very potent platform.
2. Tuning parts are generally easier to find with BMWs, so more parts availability for trackdays
3. Understatement, for me gives additional joy. Sometimes you get tired of people saying "Oh he drives a Porsche." with a mispronounced -Sche.
4. Higher ground clearance. NYC can be brutal on lowered cars.

On the other hand, Cayman offers pure sports car experience that no other manufacturer quite captures the way it does. This is more intangibles than pure numbers.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Based on this post, there are primarily two demographics:

1. Buying M2 for 90% fun and 10% practicality(more value on fun)
2. Buying M2 for 60% fun and 40% practicality(more value on practicality)

1. is generally for people who have multiple cars and 2. is for those who want one-car-do-it-all. I don't think it's silly comparison at all, because what people look for in these cars is different.

Except why would #1 buy an M2 at all, if you didn't need the practicality? That's the POINT of modern M cars, they are do-it-all cars including the practicality/comfort part, and you are paying for all that.

Edit: just saw your post,
If you don't want those parts, aren't you overpaying for something you won't use?

You can get a more fun car for less (hello, Supra) if practicality/luxury isn't your concern, is my point.

Edit: Just saw your post kyrix1st, thanks for your explanation of what you want, that helps.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I gotta agree with Ravenseal here. You can't just add arbitrary numbers onto the base M2. ESPECIALLY when the base Cayman is missing a lot of features, and options are incredibly expensive. The M2 has a ton of standard features*, and relatively few options. And what it has are not Porsche-level expensive.

*in USA anyway

When you start talking options, the price gap between the M2 and Caymans only gets wider.

I just don't think there's any world where an apples-to-apples comparison has these car within $20K of each other. Doesn't strike me as a legit cross shop.

I mean, if I had a $90K+ budget, I wouldn't have bought an M2, is all I'm sayin.

Under what standards do you define what is legitimate and illegitimate cross-shop? If we are strictly talking money, I spec out car A and car B, to my satisfaction, and compare numbers. I made a cross-shop claim completely based on certain premises, upon which he added his assumptions.
So you agree with his claims based on those unstated and unnecessary assumptions?

Originally Posted by Squidget

Except why would #1 buy an M2 at all, if you didn't need the practicality? That's the POINT of modern M cars, they are do-it-all cars including the practicality/comfort part, and you are paying for all that.

If you don't want those parts, aren't you overpaying for something you won't use?

You can get a more fun car for less (hello, Supra) if practicality/luxury isn't your concern, is my point.

My other post addresses that.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Great question and how this discussion should have gone in the first place.
1. For those who are able to handle the extra weight (in whichever way: weight reduction, suspension tuning, etc..) S58 engine is a very potent platform.
2. Tuning parts are generally easier to find with BMWs, so more parts availability for trackdays
3. Understatement, for me gives additional joy. Sometimes you get tired of people saying "Oh he drives a Porsche." with a mispronounced -Sche.
4. Higher ground clearance. NYC can be brutal on lowered cars.

On the other hand, Cayman offers pure sports car experience that no other manufacturer quite captures the way it does. This is more intangibles than pure numbers.

Got it, thanks for clarifying.
Usually when I think of cross shopping it’s more like this:

“I want a sedan of a certain size within a certain price range”

Say it’s Civic.
Then you go drive the Corolla, Mazda 3, Elantra, Civic… have a feel for them, look at the fit and finish, looks, stereo, price, warranty, payments… and decide which works best for you.

When I say the manual M2 has not competitor it’s based on those premises… call it a sedan even if 2 door (BMW used to, in past models), which manual transmission sedans are out there with similar trunk space, performance, within a price range, etc…

If automatic, I see the RS3, I think Mercedes has something, etc.

For manual… nothing.

I think we established where we were all coming from.

Let’s try to keep it respectful guys without the inflammatory language we sometimes use, they don’t convey as well in written form without a beer in the hand lol. Have a great night!

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

On the other hand, Cayman offers pure sports car experience that no other manufacturer quite captures the way it does. This is more intangibles than pure numbers.

The pure numbers are quite good too. I don't think anyone is arguing that they are bad sports cars.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Under what standards do you define what is legitimate and illegitimate cross-shop? If we are strictly talking money, I spec out car A and car B, to my satisfaction, and compare numbers.

Generally I'd say it's a cross-shop if you have two cars fulfilling the same function (for the buyer) for roughly the same money.

The part I did not get (past tense) in your comparison was that even if you optioned up the M2, and stripped down the Cayman so the prices are close, they are still providing very different capabilities and experiences.

For example, optioning up a Ducati till it costs as much as an M2 can be done, but in my eyes it's not a real cross-shop. I consider cross-shops to be more apples-to-apples, not apples-to-equivalently-priced oranges. IMO of course.

Your list of "wants" helped clarify. It's an interesting list. I never heard of ground clearance as being a pro of an M2, and I drive on Boston roads.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Squidget

.........
Your list of "wants" helped clarify. It's an interesting list. I never heard of ground clearance as being a pro of an M2, and I drive on Boston roads.

Let's just say it's the difference between being cautious of those terrible potholes all the time vs. only some of the time. They are both low, but one is better than the other.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Let's just say it's the difference between being cautious of those terrible potholes all the time vs. only some of the time. They are both low, but one is better than the other.

The M2 is much higher off the ground than my previous E90 sport pack and my E82 (later I lowered the E82 so I’d scrape everywhere if not careful).
The M2 is so high it doesn’t look as good, the front is raised weirdly.
I agree with whoever said BMW did this on purpose to sell parts (like the Supra, who remembers?)

That said, I love its carefree nature and may keep it stock so I can go anywhere! It’s not like it’s suffering in cornering performance, it’s just the looks that are odd.

[aassad1]

I cross shopped a GTS 4.0 and the g87 and from a cost to peformance perspective the argument goes out the window pretty quickly. The GTS 4.0 is 100% an objectively better car but you can't get one, and even if you can if you are specing them out comparitvely you are taking 110k+ vs 75k. That is a significant difference. I just picked up my G87 and adore it, b7t yeah if I could have a GTS 4.0 for the same price I'd take it.