After Market Ceramic Brakes?

[mastek]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

That's actually not true.

Traditionally, the calipers and pads are in fact be different between carbon ceramic brake kits and cast iron.

For example: Porsche offers an optional PCCB upgrade for the majority of their vehicle models. The calipers may be the same between the cast iron option or carbon ceramic option,... BUT,... the calipers were engineered specifically around the ability to be used with carbon ceramic discs and pads.

Also, in the event that you switch to a cast iron replacement disc on a vehicle that came originally equipped with carbon ceramic (which is very common for people who are regularly or aggressively tracking their vehicle) it is mandatory to change the pad compound at the same time.

Carbon ceramic is a brilliant technology, but not quite ready for high-performance aftermarket use, where the driving style, road or surface conditions, intended usage, and vehicle setup can all change regularly. Carbon ceramic brakes work near flawlessly within an specific temperature range and up to mildly aggressive or spirited driving. Outside of that range, most often during heavier and more aggressive track or track like conditions, they are much more susceptible to performance and longevity related issues.

There are a few companies in the process of fighting to be the first aftermarket supplier with a legitimate carbon ceramic offering for aftermarket consumption, unfortunately most of them are not actually manufacturers of the components or directly involved in the development of carbon or carbon ceramic technology, and are simply using trial and error engineering to piece together brake systems.

There are definitely going to be a few people out there who are willing to be early adopters of this technology on their street cars, but there will be a price to pay for signing up to be the "guinea pig" for these companies to actually road test their systems. ME...I'd rather wait until a proper supplier and manufacturer of such technology releases a properly engineered system where they were able to do significant laboratory and road testing with proper engineering, R&D, and failure testing to ensure the product is specifically suited to our type of market.

there are only 2 or 3 factories that make ceramic rotors right now --- and none of them are owned by BBK companies ......

Right now, u can buy aftermarket Ceramic rotors for a Nissan GTR using their OE Brembo Calipers (and pads). And a couple of other road cars as well.

BTW, a 997 GT3 w PCCB has the same calipers then on the kit that comes standard .... so how is that not true?
...... and what would be different on a Ceramic-Rotor equipped caliper vs. an Iron-Rotor equipped caliper?

[Starfire_CMC]

All,
The rotors are different, bigger--ceramic with carbon fibers.
The calipers are traditionally much larger as are the pads, and of a slightly different compounding.

These ARE commercially available. I can get you details.

http://www.starfiresystems.com/industry_friction.php

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by mastek

there are only 2 or 3 factories that make ceramic rotors right now --- and none of them are owned by BBK companies ......

It's true that there are only a handful of manufacturers of carbon/carbon and carbon ceramic brake discs around the world...but it is false that none of them are owned by the "BBK Companies".

Brembo is the leader in carbon ceramic braking technology for research and development, manufacturing, testing, and as a supplier to leading automakers around the World (Ferrari, Mercedes, Pagani, GM, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo). Their most recent public activity was a 50/50 joint partnership with SGL Group, the original supplier to Porsche for their PCCB discs.

http://www.brembo.com/ENG/Car-Brakes/BSCCB/

http://www.brembo.com/ENG/AboutBremb...UP/BCBSSPA.htm

Brembo's latest inception of the Carbon Ceramic Matrix (CCM) disc, and the closest product yet to being officially available for the aftermarket is CCM-R(R)...

http://www.brembo.com/ENG/Racing-Brakes/Birmingham2010/

Originally Posted by mastek

Right now, u can buy aftermarket Ceramic rotors for a Nissan GTR using their OE Brembo Calipers (and pads). And a couple of other road cars as well.

True. But this is a system developed by a 3rd party, using components that were not originally intended to be used together.

Originally Posted by Stillen / Brake Pro's Press-release

Who uses these ultimate CCM discs? The most up-to-date version is found on the Koenigsegg CCX and McLaren MP4-12C. And now - STILLEN and AP Racing have optimized a specific set for your R35 GT-R and the factory brake calipers.

I'm speculating that Surface Transforms is the supplier of these carbon ceramic discs since the press release references the Koenigsegg CCX, and they were the brake disc supplier on that particular project. Surface Transforms also has a history of making their discs available to numerous aftermarket BBK suppliers such as StopTech and Movit in an effort to recoup some of the development costs from projects like the CCX.

http://surface-transforms.com/siteen...l_overview.stm

I'd be curious to learn how much direct involvement AP Racing has had in the development of this product, since AP Racing is not a manufacturer of carbon ceramic discs. I do know that AP Racing and Surface Transforms has had a relationship in the past, but have not heard of any recent activities.

http://www.surface-transforms.com/re...rch%202007.pdf

Originally Posted by mastek

BTW, a 997 GT3 w PCCB has the same calipers then on the kit that comes standard .... so how is that not true?

I mentioned that Porsche has used the same calipers for both their cast iron brake systems and with their optional PCCB rotors. I also started to explain that the development of the calipers was specifically based around the ability to be used in both configurations by changing only discs and pads.

Originally Posted by mastek

...... and what would be different on a Ceramic-Rotor equipped caliper vs. an Iron-Rotor equipped caliper?

The most notable differences would be the use of additional heat barriers to reduce heat transfer to the pistons, seals, and caliper body. Carbon Ceramic brake systems traditionally use much larger pad shapes, partly for increased surface area and volume, and as a secondary heat sink to handle the extreme temperatures, so the caliper is designed around that physical characteristic as well. There are other differences within the caliper internally, but that would be proprietary information and part of the reason why I explained that I would place the most trust in the hands of the company who is in complete control of the engineering, development, manufacturing, and testing processes.

Lastly, besides the physical differences in the components themselves, vehicles developed around the use of carbon ceramic brakes will also employ different wheel carriers and uprights that the brakes systems are mounted to, as well as different ABS modules and traction control systems. If you look at GM for one example, the ZR1 uses a newly developed Bosch ABS control module not shared with other model Corvettes using cast iron brakes.

[MonteCarloM3]

as requested...

Mov'It

[Prit@Euro Autowerx]

Originally Posted by Jonmartin

http://www.movit.de/rahmen/ceramic.htm

This place makes kits also.

These kits are upwards of $14,000 for the ceramic option. Very comparable to the GTR brembo kit paired with ceramic rotors.

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

It's true that there are only a handful of manufacturers of carbon/carbon and carbon ceramic brake discs around the world...but it is false that none of them are owned by the "BBK Companies".

Brembo is the leader in carbon ceramic braking technology for research and development, manufacturing, testing, and as a supplier to leading automakers around the World (Ferrari, Mercedes, Pagani, GM, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo). Their most recent public activity was a 50/50 joint partnership with SGL Group, the original supplier to Porsche for their PCCB discs.

...

I'd be curious to learn how much direct involvement AP Racing has had in the development of this product, since AP Racing is not a manufacturer of carbon ceramic discs. I do know that AP Racing and Surface Transforms has had a relationship in the past, but have not heard of any recent activities.

So, let me get this straight: AP Racing's customer's success at the recent Turkish GP (where either their CARBON brakes or their CARBON clutches (or BOTH) were on ALL of the top ten finishers) was some kind of bizarre stroke of exceptional good luck? It only happened because AP Racing's engineers were lucky enough to buy their parts off the back of the right pick-up truck?

You've over-spun this post; you're doing the "damning with faint praise" thing to suppliers that simply don't deserve it. Brembo makes good products. You're embarassing them.

[TheKosherStogie]

i can add this...my gt3 has steel brakes and they squeal all day and loud. i went for steel specifically cause the cost off ccb and heard they squeal alot. apprarently everyone is now saying the ccb brakes dont squeal. confusing

[Maseroche]

Originally Posted by sammyrusso

i can add this...my gt3 has steel brakes and they squeal all day and loud. i went for steel specifically cause the cost off ccb and heard they squeal alot. apprarently everyone is now saying the ccb brakes dont squeal. confusing

What you need to do is go for a "spirited" run in Mexico perhaps and really use the brakes. Won't squeal after that!

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by JAJ

So, let me get this straight: AP Racing's customer's success at the recent Turkish GP (where either their CARBON brakes or their CARBON clutches (or BOTH) were on ALL of the top ten finishers) was some kind of bizarre stroke of exceptional good luck? It only happened because AP Racing's engineers were lucky enough to buy their parts off the back of the right pick-up truck?

The brakes you're speaking of would be carbon/carbon, not carbon ceramic.
Different technology all together.
The same goes for the friction materials used in carbon clutch technology.

So no...that is NOT at all what I was saying.

AP Racing is an amazing company. Their products are phenomenal. AP is a Brembo owned company, but completely self sufficient and a direct competitor to Brembo at the top of the motorsports food chain in arenas such as Formula 1. Nothing I stated should be taken in negative context about AP Racing.

The 2pc. rotor assemblies mentioned for the Nissan GTR do not come directly from AP Racing, and AP Racing does not currently manufacturer carbon ceramic discs for any sort of aftermarket consumption.

These are facts.

So when someone mentions that you can currently buy carbon ceramic rotors for use with Brembo calipers, I felt that it would only be in good form to point out that this should not be used as an example of the current state of that particular technology, or the direction it is going.

Example:
Is the Nissan GTR customer willing and capable of monitoring brake caliper and rotor temperatures to ensure proper working order of his brake system?

Will he be able to determine if the calipers are seeing elevated temperatures that are outside of proper operating conditions for a road car caliper that was not developed specifically for use with carbon ceramic brakes? And even IF SO, does he have any idea of how to maintain or service the calipers if necessary, or if they are even serviceable at all?

How will his electronically controlled ABS and traction control function with the very different coefficients of friction, and throughout the wide range of driving styles and usage the car may be exposed to?
IE: Panic stops, threshold braking, spirited driving, track driving, trail braking, wet weather, etc...

What is the proper method for determining rotor wear and ensuring that you are not exceeding MOT of the discs or pads and sending the disc into a mode of rapid wear, or possibly failure?


Developing a product for aftermarket use is VERY different than developing or supplying products to professional racing or for OEM production. Taking a product developed specifically for one vehicle or use, and adapting it to a different vehicle altogether hold it's own challenges.

I personally don't think it was wrong to question that, or direct attention to that fact either.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by JAJ

So, let me get this straight: AP Racing's customer's success at the recent Turkish GP (where either their CARBON brakes or their CARBON clutches (or BOTH) were on ALL of the top ten finishers) was some kind of bizarre stroke of exceptional good luck? It only happened because AP Racing's engineers were lucky enough to buy their parts off the back of the right pick-up truck?

You've over-spun this post; you're doing the "damning with faint praise" thing to suppliers that simply don't deserve it. Brembo makes good products. You're embarassing them.

What Gary is saying about the design, development and production of carbon-ceramic brake systems is basically true. These are not a straight "swap overs" for iron and may never be. CCM discs run much hotter due to having a much lower mass. The pads and calipers are made to pay the price for this and must be considered in the overall solution.

What he might not be aware of regarding the development of the Stillen/AP Racing CCM upgrade for the Nissan R35 GT-R (which I was involved with) was that is was a very long and complicated process. AP Racing has much more experience with CCM systems than it would appear to have to an outsider. Much of their OE work is not made public, so not many people would know about the many years of development, dyno testing, track testing, etc.

True, AP Racing does not manufacture their own CCM discs at the present time. There are currently two qualified suppliers, one of which is Brembo/SGL for the OE programs. Although they share ownership, AP Racing is treated as a regular customer of The Brembo Group for such programs.

It also should be understood that carbon/carbon brake and clutch technology has been around for at least 40 years, going back to fighter plane brakes. I was involved as a design engineer 20 years ago with carbon/carbon racing clutch and brake systems, which was still a bit on the bleeding edge of technology back then. We made the stuff work, but it didn't work the same for every application. A lot of development needed to be done to better understand the material and what it did/didn't like, not to mention the various materials we could start with and the numerous ways to finish it.

Carbon-ceramic technology has been around for a number of years now, but there are still huge gains to be made. Of course, the more people that buy the stuff, the more companies will eagerly pursue its perfection. The trouble spot is that a true CCM upgrade system for the M3 will likely cost $20k. So, how may takers do we have so far?

Chris