[allinon72]

Just curious - as an X3M owner, one of the main gripes about the s58 in the F97 in the X3 forums is the lack of low end torque, especially in anything other than Sport Plus mode. This includes at low speeds from a roll and punching it in a higher gear on the highway. It kind of just bogs down. Reading this forum for several months, I almost never hear G80/82 owners complain about a lack of low end. I realize there's a weight difference, but wondering about an engine/tuning difference with the F97 as well.

Do you feel that the G80/82 lacks low end torque?

[masd79]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Just curious - as an X3M owner, one of the main gripes about the s58 in the F97 in the X3 forums is the lack of low end torque, especially in anything other than Sport Plus mode. This includes at low speeds from a roll and punching it in a higher gear on the highway. It kind of just bogs down. Reading this forum for several months, I almost never hear G80/82 owners complain about a lack of low end. I realize there's a weight difference, but wondering about an engine/tuning difference with the F97 as well.

Do you feel that the G80/82 lacks low end torque?

I had a g80 and now a g83 and yes anything less than a sport plus on d3/s3 is like driving a 330ish on a normal day. It feels slow and its noticeable. I actually bought a m5 when g80 was introduced and I had an opportunity to test drive and then had to come back to it after being told you have to full throttle it to get that full power near red line… and then I was ok.

[NightWriter]

The X3M is ~700 pounds heavier. And the flip side to lower low-end torque is a more natural/linear power ramp, and a power band that does not taper off at the top end.

[Scorp!on]

Well with bigger turbos as the S55 and a different tune yes, up until about 2'500rpm there is zero torque.
BUT from then on up until the redline this thing pulls bonkers hard!
with that said it doesn't mean you can just smash the throttle in any condition...I for example have summer tires on and today it rained at about 15 degrees celcius and with cold tires the car loved to break out.


best thing:
try one if you can.

[JDR_G80]

I find the acceleration is similar to my 335d in comfort mode. It's so smooth without revving that you look at the speedometer and it's higher than what you expected to see. Above 4k rpm is when it really jumps.

[YamaLink]

Wondering what the ratio is of new owners who knew this (the power delivery at lower rpm) versus those who purchased without test drive and may be disappointed due to expectations.

Driver input from https://g80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1818732

"ENGINE AND PERFORMANCE

- Easiest to explain is

F80 CS has a rapid accelaration and instant response at little bit of pedal and lower rpms BUT engine has no power in upper revs, you feel like: oh holy crap i am gonna die, and then when car gets going with full pedal and throttle and high revs you notice that car is losing the breath, soul and fight.

IN G80 you have entirely opposite feeling compared to M3 CS. Car feels much more planted and easy going and you are like: Damn why did i buy this car, there is no improvement over M3 F80 CS, but when you hit upper 4k rpms you notice a power that doesnt gets off, just keeps pulling and gives you a hit M3 CS never gave. Fun comes but with much latter timing. In high speed driving this is very noticable and you feel how much stronger new generation is.

Unfortunately at low speeds its like a day and night compared to old M3, it just doesnt give you that smile and punch in the back you expect in the M. feels much more like a family car. Lag is noticable when you hit the pedal with kickdown you feel eternity, same as with M40i engine in x4. i dont like this feeling and for overtaking this was bothering me. I had all settings on sport plus and sport and car was never above 2k -2.3k when i didnt push the pedal. this annoyed me since i had a feeling that car wasnt reacting fast enough because of that when i pushed the gas pedal. When i pushed left gear paddle car reacted fast and had almost instant response/still lesser than m3 cs i had. My only wish is that they tuned the car in lower rpm more responsive to the pedal or at least have a car ready in higher rpm if you are into sportiest settings with automatic mode. Just didnt feel like a M car if you didnt push the car with full gas."


Edmunds.com wrote "The Competition model is almost ridiculously rapid. Big speeds just ambush you. Any significant right-ankle extension has you riding ahead on a colossal wave of torque, and yet there are few sensations to alert you to what's going on. The engine note is a classical straight-six hum, a very different and perhaps less antisocial thing than the rambunctious V8 beats of the rival Mercedes-AMG C 63.

The accessible torque makes the M3 feel mighty. There's a little turbo lag below 3,000 rpm, but third and fourth gear give mighty thrust for real-road driving. From then on it's a smooth surge to the redline; the engine never loses enthusiasm for rocketing you forward. The main indication it's getting to the rev limit is an array of shift-up lights in the instrument pack and an optional head-up display."
That quote is from https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/dri...21-bmw-m3.html

[YamaLink]

Originally Posted by masd79

I had a g80 and now a g83 and yes anything less than a sport plus on d3/s3 is like driving a 330ish on a normal day. It feels slow and its noticeable. I actually bought a m5 when g80 was introduced and I had an opportunity to test drive and then had to come back to it after being told you have to full throttle it to get that full power near red line… and then I was ok.

Somewhat related. Top Gear's long term test mentions driving their M3 in the tamest setting most of the time which, I guess, would make it seem like a 330-ish on a normal day: https://www.topgear.com/long-term-ca...ition/report-6

"You’ll probably spend most of the time in its tamest setting
Spoiler alert: for the majority of my trip I ended driving the M3 like a boggo 3 Series. How boring. But I suspect most owners will end up doing the same. That’s because the new M3 defaults to its most sanitised and sane setting at start-up. Compared to M3s of old, firing the car up is an anti-climatic affair: it wakes in its calmest, most efficient engine map, quietest exhaust mode and will scurry up the eight-speed auto box as soon as possible when getting going."

[GaoKS]

Interesting read. Didn't even think of this OP.

Reminds me of the F8x when some people preferred the non comp to the due to the crazy spike in low end torque mapping - albeit, sometimes too crazy.

[Mac Daddy]

The 6 speed G82 I drove seemed to have enough grunt from about 2000 rpm, but I have no doubt with the auto in comfort mode it might be a little sluggish.

BMW lowered the compression ratio in the S58 to 9.3:1, from 10.2:1 in the S55. They both displace 3.0L, so we should definitely expect less torque off boost. Why did they do this? Not sure, but the benefits might include allowing more boost safely and reliability.

An aside for those of us of a "certain age" - all of these modern engines are so much better at making power across the rpm range. Turbo engines do much better at low rpm/off boost. My F30 328i, with a 2.0L 4 cylinder (N20), pulls really well below 1500 rpm. Compare that to my old 944 turbos back in the day. They were complete slugs until the boost hit above 3000 rpm.

[RonBurgundy]

Originally Posted by YamaLink

Somewhat related. Top Gear's long term test mentions driving their M3 in the tamest setting most of the time which, I guess, would make it seem like a 330-ish on a normal day: https://www.topgear.com/long-term-ca...ition/report-6

"You’ll probably spend most of the time in its tamest setting
Spoiler alert: for the majority of my trip I ended driving the M3 like a boggo 3 Series. How boring. But I suspect most owners will end up doing the same. That’s because the new M3 defaults to its most sanitised and sane setting at start-up. Compared to M3s of old, firing the car up is an anti-climatic affair: it wakes in its calmest, most efficient engine map, quietest exhaust mode and will scurry up the eight-speed auto box as soon as possible when getting going."

I assume it’s an easy fix using Bimmercode to code the cat to start in sport plus mode. That’s the first thing I coded in my M2, along with turning off auto stop start by default

[masd79]

Originally Posted by YamaLink

Somewhat related. Top Gear's long term test mentions driving their M3 in the tamest setting most of the time which, I guess, would make it seem like a 330-ish on a normal day: https://www.topgear.com/long-term-ca...ition/report-6

"You'll probably spend most of the time in its tamest setting
Spoiler alert: for the majority of my trip I ended driving the M3 like a boggo 3 Series. How boring. But I suspect most owners will end up doing the same. That's because the new M3 defaults to its most sanitised and sane setting at start-up. Compared to M3s of old, firing the car up is an anti-climatic affair: it wakes in its calmest, most efficient engine map, quietest exhaust mode and will scurry up the eight-speed auto box as soon as possible when getting going."

Very accurate indeed. The funny part is that passengers including my wife bust me when I hit m2 mid driving now… I can't say this is a fast car and just runs like this so deal with it. And with my car enthusiast friends I have to hit m2 with a quick movement at crank otherwise i have listen to, wow this feels just like my sons 330i. When on highest setting and reviving it's a Rocket…

[YamaLink]

Originally Posted by masd79

Very accurate indeed. The funny part is that passengers including my wife bust me when I hit m2 mid driving now… I can't say this is a fast car and just runs like this so deal with it. And with my car enthusiast friends I have to hit m2 with a quick movement at crank otherwise i have listen to, wow this feels just like my sons 330i. When on highest setting and reviving it's a Rocket…

One reason I'm not buying another Tesla is the need to have more driving involvement. While I'm not a manual type, I do miss "being one" with a car's torque and rpm and tip-in, hence the purchase of an ICE. My OCD fingers will always be hitting the red buttons like the lockout on my XC race mtb so that I'm looking forward to.
I didn't buy my M4CX because it's the fastest or quickest or blah blah blah. In December my friends and I made a list of my must haves, and 0 to 60 wasn't even on the list. I wanted style, interior, tech, AWD, excess, sound, etc. Although I wanted to avoid the lag of my old 2013 Audi A5 2.0 I4. I'm one of those who did not test drive the M3/4 because of availability. I owned a 2020 M240ix and tested the 2021 M340ix which was amazing around town down low in the rpm. I don't street race even on my Super Duke, ZX14 or Vmax, or even my Tesla. But I won't lie and say the low end discussion of our cars wasn't a slight bummer even as my car is 2 days from the Panama Canal.

[TexasEd]

The G80/82 definitely does not lack low end torque.

[brava09]

I can feel it only from standing start. Brake boost at 3,000 rpm and no more issues

[kyoung05]

Originally Posted by Mac Daddy

The 6 speed G82 I drove seemed to have enough grunt from about 2000 rpm, but I have no doubt with the auto in comfort mode it might be a little sluggish.

BMW lowered the compression ratio in the S58 to 9.3:1, from 10.2:1 in the S55. They both displace 3.0L, so we should definitely expect less torque off boost. Why did they do this? Not sure, but the benefits might include allowing more boost safely and reliability.

An aside for those of us of a "certain age" - all of these modern engines are so much better at making power across the rpm range. Turbo engines do much better at low rpm/off boost. My F30 328i, with a 2.0L 4 cylinder (N20), pulls really well below 1500 rpm. Compare that to my old 944 turbos back in the day. They were complete slugs until the boost hit above 3000 rpm.

This was my experience driving the G80 6MT as well. During “normal” driving it felt about the same as my M340i - maybe a bit less torquey around town. However, once you get into the higher RPMs it feels different, but even then it isn’t night and day, but the power delivery is much more linear and doesn’t fall off like it does in the non-M cars. I think it’s power band is tuned a lot better than the F80 generation where the tires/chassis felt overwhelmed by the low end torque from a dig which, while fun, feels a lot less natural and harder to modulate. Reminds me a bit of the Scat Pack Charger I had - tons of low end torque, but very little of it was actually usable.

That said, the M feels a lot more engaging. The outright power delivery, and low end torque specifically, isn’t what sets it apart from the non-M cars. If that’s all I was going for, I’d probably be happier sticking with the M340i - especially with a Stage 1 tune. If this isn’t a car you’re going to be revving out frequently I can see how some might be disappointed. In day to day driving, the almost instant torque of the B58 is more rewarding in that it’s more readily accessible. I think a lot of people look at the specs and read the reviews and have a certain expectation that the M3/M4 is better than the M-Lite cars everywhere in the rev range and that isn’t true. But when you’re driving spiritedly or on track you’re rarely in the low end of the power and so it isn’t an issue.

Of course, I’m also used to older turbo cars like my STI where you get nothing until 3,000+ RPMs and I frequently get beat off the line by pretty much anything so the M3 was a big improvement. Even then, I can see the M3 not being as fast from red light to red light as some “slower” cars under normal conditions- especially with the 6MT. But, that’s something I’m going into with eyes wide open and am perfectly fine with. Sounds like others may not be.

[allinon72]

Interesting differences of opinion. I was pretty sold on a G82 (if I can get an allocation) but now I'm reconsidering. I really miss the slingshot effect from my old F80 - it just had the feeling of unlimited power on tap in any gear at nearly every speed. Did not have to kick down 3 gears either.

[brava09]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Interesting differences of opinion. I was pretty sold on a G82 (if I can get an allocation) but now I'm reconsidering. I really miss the slingshot effect from my old F80 - it just had the feeling of unlimited power on tap in any gear at nearly every speed. Did not have to kick down 3 gears either.

I say you should reconsider, the G80 is a very fast car, it feels as fast if not faster than my F90

[bri1042]

I certainly don't want to start an argument, but (heh) twin-scroll turbocharging and its early torque and power have, I think, changed how folk think cars SHOULD drive. I think it's great for lower-powered cars that need it (4-bangers and lower-powered 6's) but I don't think it's always a great idea for more powerful cars.

Nothing is free, as we've seen in many of the twin-scroll (note that I'm using BMW's term inclusively for all such setups) that have a couple thousand useless RPMs up top. The reduction of linear power-build-up feel is also a negative to the experience overall (if not 0-60 times). And (this is the part that's hard for folk to admit, even to themselves) most drivers don't really have the skill to daily-drive cars that are putting out 400ft-lb of torque at 1500 RPM. Or whatever. Also, at the end of the day, lag and boost threshold certainly varies from turbo car to turbo car, but it isn't actually possible with current turbocharges to make those two "issues" disappear.

A bit of perspective, though: At 2k RPM, based on a quick look at a couple of posted dyno sheets, the S58 is putting out 213ish lb ft of torque. The last V6 that was in the Mustang puts out around 130 lb ft at 2k RPM. So it could be worse, I suppose. Always look on the bright side of having a relatively small engine...

['Cane]

G8X have two single scroll turbos, G2X have single twin scroll.

[bri1042]

Originally Posted by 'Cane

G8X have two single scroll turbos, G2X have single twin scroll.

Yes, thus the primary reason why the low-end is not what folk expect after spending time in twin-scroll cars. And, thankfully, the top end is ALSO not what folk expect after spending time in twin-scroll cars.

[Young04]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Interesting differences of opinion. I was pretty sold on a G82 (if I can get an allocation) but now I'm reconsidering. I really miss the slingshot effect from my old F80 - it just had the feeling of unlimited power on tap in any gear at nearly every speed. Did not have to kick down 3 gears either.

I have a pre-LCI X3MC and a G83 that I should (hopefully) have within the next couple of weeks (just got to NY port of entry). In my test drives of the G80, I thought the G80 had noticeably better low end response than my X3MC. I thought this was in my head and/or due to the lighter weight, but my dealer also let me test drive an LCI X3MC after which I continued to believe that the updated S58 had better low end response.

With this said, I think it would be a real stretch to say that it flat out has good low end response. But it is definitely more agreeable than the pre-LCI F97.

Are there any local dealers that have a used G8x available for test drive?

[nathanm4]

Simple answer: YES.