[wj100]

Hi all,

I'm going ask this question in the hopes this thread doesn't go off the rails. So, here goes:

I'm a former E90-M3, F82-M4 owner who took a break from M cars for a couple years with an Alfa Giulia QV. I was in the order bank for a G80 but, after finally getting the chance to drive one, I backed out. I just felt like the G80 had become too big and heavy for my taste. So, as a stopgap, until I can get a G87, I picked up a Supra 3.0 AT (which is quite a bit of fun).

I'm #3 in the order bank at my dealership but wondering if the G87 will feel more engaging as a daily driver than the G80 did in my limited time behind the wheel. Obviously I was disappointed to hear the weight of the G87 when it was announced, but hoping the shorter wheelbase will breathe some life into the thing.

Anyone have any thoughts? Even though it will be less powerful, will the G87 be more fun to drive than the G80/82?

PS, let's please try to keep this discussion about driving dynamics and not go into looks, practicality, cost, lack of colors, etc. Thanks!

[Tag]

Anyone that tells how they 'think' the G87 will drive will be doing so out of pure conjecture. Have to wait until reviews come out next year.

That said, BMW revised the suspension of the G87 when compared to the G80/2. They stiffened the front springs and gave it a softer setup in the rear, the same spring/shock combo that the G81 has. They said it was to make the car have more character. If you haven't done so watch the prototype first drive videos, some of the reviews get into how the car handles. I wouldn't hang my hat on what they say however since they were testing prototypes and not production models.

[trey100]

The M2C was also a copy of the F80/2 but always got glowing reviews while the F80 received mediocre ones. Weight was similarly close as it is here with the G series. I concluded that the size of the M2C made a world of difference and I imagine we can assume the same here as well.

[qballis]

Originally Posted by Tag

Anyone that tells how they 'think' the G87 will drive will be doing so out of pure conjecture. Have to wait until reviews come out next year.

That said, BMW revised the suspension of the G87 when compared to the G80/2. They stiffened the front springs and gave it a softer setup in the rear, the same spring/shock combo that the G81 has. They said it was to make the car have more character. If you haven't done so watch the prototype first drive videos, some of the reviews get into how the car handles. I wouldn't hang my hat on what they say however since they were testing prototypes and not production models.

Think a drop with something like the MSS HAS kit will alter the character as is delivered?

[Game]

Probably a good idea for a thread once some of us have driven the car. For now it's all speculation.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by qballis

Think a drop with something like the MSS HAS kit will alter the character as is delivered?

Anytime you lower the cars entire center of gravity, such as dropping it with springs, you alter the character of the car. The question is will it be for the better? Depends on the quality of the springs and if they have proper spring rates to work in conjunction with the dampers. Springs that are not matched will make the car drive worse, not better.

[Caerus]

Go try to find a G42 M240i and drive it. I have one and I am content with its overall size and driving dynamics. Just wish it had a manual gearbox. I occasionally drive my friends G82 M4 and although I like it, I find it to big for my taste like you have indicated. After driving it, it confirmed that I will not get one either and I am getting the G87. Since I really love the G42, the G87 can only be much better, especially with a manual shifter.

[BRAKE!]

FWIW, when I drove the g82 for 2 days around a track last year. When compared to the f8X chassis, I found it to be much more stable and predictable in power delivery and traction. There is a jitteriness about the F chassis that isn’t there in the G series. It’s much more composed, more insulated, more comfortable and, in turn, I found myself carrying more speed through every aspect of the track.

Obviously, no one here has driven the g87 yet, but I’m guessing it’ll feel similar to the g80/2. If so, neither car feels nimble like a cayman or a ND Miata. There is a sharpness about these lighter weight cars, the immediacy in braking, and ease in driving that is not replicated in the heavier bimmers. But the handling, power, prestige, looks all go to the BMW hands down.

[PNTDG42]

Was the G80 you drove an automatic X-Drive car? I have decided that I believe people find a car less exciting and/or too heavy when the car is extremely easy to drive and uneventful as you approach its limits. The car can be covering ground insanely quickly, but it has no edge. I think the most fun car for someone can vary depending on their expectations of perceived speed versus actual speed. For example; people who don't care at all how genuinely fast a car is, can have a total hoot in a mostly stock Miata or S2000, and they will likely say that a 500HP AWD Automatic or DCT car feels boring and heavy to them... even though it decimates the prior at realistic performance metrics. It can take some modifications to add an edge to such an extremely planted and poised vehicle... like an additional few hundred HP

[BRAKE!]

Originally Posted by PNTDG42

Was the G80 you drove an automatic X-Drive car? I have decided that I believe people find a car less exciting and/or too heavy when the car is extremely easy to drive and uneventful as you approach its limits. The car can be covering ground insanely quickly, but it has no edge. I think the most fun car for someone can vary depending on their expectations of perceived speed versus actual speed. For example; people who don't care at all how genuinely fast a car is, can have a total hoot in a mostly stock Miata or S2000, and they will likely say that a 500HP AWD Automatic or DCT car feels boring and heavy to them... even though it decimates the prior at realistic performance metrics. It can take some modifications to add an edge to such an extremely planted and poised vehicle... like an additional few hundred HP

If you’re asking me, I drove an automatic, RWD M4 comp. I agree with what you said. Often, it is more fun driving a slow car fast than driving a fast car slow (due to the perceived speed and the exhilaration you get at the top end)

[BRAKE!]

Originally Posted by qballis

Think a drop with something like the MSS HAS kit will alter the character as is delivered?

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

[Game]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

Working out a little rubbing, to me, is always worth the small hassle. Stock height is not for me. The car just looks 10x better with a moderate drop and some spacers.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

BMW already sells a HAS kit for the M3/4 and word is they also have one for the M2. Warranty on your suspension will not be void if you use the BMW HAS. I lower all my cars because I like sitting low and it lowers the cars entire center of gravity which makes it handle better. If you use a quality kit it won't ruin anything, it'll improve the cars handling. Tire rubbing is only caused when using spacers, aftermarket wheels with an overly aggressive offset, putting on tires that are too wide or any combo of those. A lowered car on stock wheels and tires will not rub. I will however give you the scraping part, that is a concern, but IMO the payoff is totally worth it.

[M Division]

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

This is all very true and valid except a few experts have stated that the reason the car rides so high and has huge wheel gap like the G80s is because of some sort of regulation in certain countries, if that's true (dubious) then BMW have had to compromise ride height (COG, dynamics, etc) to comply and have built incredible springs/tuning around legislation limitations. In which case lowering with quality springs could aid in all areas.

The dampers themselves seem to be able to adapt to a wide variety of spring rates for different conditions and ride heights. As you say you never want to go to low but a slight drop on quality springs seems can be a pretty valif approach.

[Jims M3]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

I agree my F80 had a HAS kit on it, it was terrible it made the car crashy and the dampers seemed like they couldn't handle the higher spring rates. I ended up going with a Tractive suspension, and suspect that is what I would eventually do on the M2 as well. Huge improvement over stock factory dampers.

[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by Jims M3

I agree my F80 had a HAS kit on it, it was terrible it made the car crashy and the dampers seemed like they couldn't handle the higher spring rates. I ended up going with a Tractive suspension, and suspect that is what I would eventually do on the M2 as well. Huge improvement over stock factory dampers.

Was it M Performance or aftermarket? I never did suspension before. I am contemplating M Performance suspension.

[Jims M3]

Originally Posted by Albator_IIII

Was it M Performance or aftermarket? I never did suspension before. I am contemplating M Performance suspension.

I would leave the suspension stock until you decide on an aftermarket set up. With the BMW adaptive suspensions you need something that communicates with the system. On my E92 I have the Bilstien Damptronic with Swift springs, which is a huge upgrade over stock, and on the F80 I have Tractive both communicate with the OEM computer. I wouldn't buy anything that deltes the OEM capabilities. Stock M dampers are not worth replacing when they wear out, both other options are better and cost less.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by Jims M3

I would leave the suspension stock until you decide on an aftermarket set up. With the BMW adaptive suspensions you need something that communicates with the system. On my E92 I have the Bilstien Damptronic with Swift springs, which is a huge upgrade over stock, and on the F80 I have Tractive both communicate with the OEM computer. I wouldn't buy anything that deltes the OEM capabilities. Stock M dampers are not worth replacing when they wear out, both other options are better and cost less.

Sounds like you went aftermarket with the previous setup you had which you did not like. The BMW M Performance HAS kit reuses the stock dampers, so you don't lose the adaptive suspension. The spring perch gets replaced with an adjustable one, springs are shorter and matched to the stock dampers and they come with shorter bump stops to accommodate for the lowered ride height.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by BRAKE!

I think that whenever you put this type of suspension on a road car, it makes everything worse. BMW spent countless hours and a lot of money to calibrate the suspension for daily use on imperfect roads we all drive on (+ the track). I defer to their expertise when it comes to driving characteristics of this car. Unless you are building a dedicated track car with top of the line suspension, making one or two changes in the suspension will alter the balance of the car and ruin the overall drivability of it. I see so many ppl do it for cosmetic reasons and then have to drive slow in almost all conditions to prevent tire rubbing, front bumper scraping, suspension bottoming out, not to mention voiding warranty.

Modifying a car is a personal choice. It rarely makes the car 'better' at all. You are most likely introducing imbalance in a car that took some time to create balance and given driveability with performance etc. Beyond warranty its just a personal choice. For most they need driver training not car modification. That is the most powerful 'mod' a better driver

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Modifying a car is a personal choice. It rarely makes the car 'better' at all. You are most likely introducing imbalance in a car that took some time to create balance and given driveability with performance etc. Beyond warranty its just a personal choice. For most they need driver training not car modification. That is the most powerful 'mod' a better driver

Hmmmm....

I've modified my last 5 Ms, and they all ended up handling better, going faster, and selling for more at the end of my ownership. Even Ms are -- to an extent -- designed for the masses. Look at how high new BMWs ride! Lowering them, with either the M Performance parts or high quality parts from Dinan, KW, Billstein etc.improve handling and looks, and still are great for daily driving. Intakes, catted downpipes, tunes, etc. can all be safe, effective mods.

And I've never had my dealer raise an eyebrow.

Just MY humble opinion (and experience).

[Tag]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

Hmmmm....

I've modified my last 5 Ms, and they all ended up handling better, going faster, and selling for more at the end of my ownership. Even Ms are -- to an extent -- designed for the masses. Look at how high new BMWs ride! Lowering them, with either the M Performance parts or high quality parts from Dinan, KW, Billstein etc.improve handling and looks, and still are great for daily driving. Intakes, catted downpipes, tunes, etc. can all be safe, effective mods.

And I've never had my dealer raise an eyebrow.

Just MY humble opinion (and experience).

Agree 100%, every car I've modded performs better than stock because it was modded correctly. I keep seeing people say it makes the car worse which makes me wonder, are they going off what they've read somewhere or personal experience? I've seen people that don't know what they're doing make a car worse because they didn't do their homework. For instance, someone might get springs which are not properly matched to the dampers, and they also don't replace the bump stops with shorter ones. Then they end up with a harsh or bouncy ride that crashes. I've even seen people get quality coilovers and then slam the car and virtual ride on the bump stops and then they wonder why it rides so harsh. Hint, you're doing it wrong.

[m20e3087]

Originally Posted by Tag

Agree 100%, every car I've modded performs better than stock because it was modded correctly. I keep seeing people say it makes the car worse which makes me wonder, are they going off what they've read somewhere or personal experience? I've seen people that don't know what they're doing make a car worse because they didn't do their homework. For instance, someone might get springs which are not properly matched to the dampers, and they also don't replace the bump stops with shorter ones. Then they end up with a harsh or bouncy ride that crashes. I've even seen people get quality coilovers and then slam the car and virtual ride on the bump stops and then they wonder why it rides so harsh. Hint, you're doing it wrong.

This. I don’t mess with suspension unless the car absolutely needs it. G80 was the 1st drop I did over a decade. As I get older mod lists are decreasing lol. That being said I am all for makeing the car sound better, don’t really care much for carbon parts etc.