[BigBart33]

A bit scared to ask because I know the hate American cars get here, but curious if anybody was/is cross-shopping the S650? The S650 has a few advantages, in my opinion: V8, potentially cheaper, honestly more tech if fully loaded particularly with the MT (available ACC, etc.), looks better in some ways (particularly the headlights and taillights, and colors), available convertible, and the biggest one to me, probably feels more connected. I didn’t particularly like my F87 since the steering feel and shifter kind of sucked, and the chassis was stiff and not all that well balanced while also seeming kind of distant. The interior was also subpar for a $60k sports car IMO. But I believe these issues have been mostly remedied with the new G87.

Quite a few disadvantages of the Mustang compared to the G87 M2, which makes me believe the M2 is probably the better car, some of which is speculative though: probably handles a fair bit better and hides its weight better, more refined with a better interior, the tech it does have is better (iDrive is top tier as we all know), better MT than the standard Getrag (albeit with the horrible rubbery shifter, but that can be changed), and much easier to get lots of HP from. Also likely feels a fair bit faster stock, torque curve is better and more WHP from the factory.

The biggest issue with the Mustang is it just seems too expensive. You’re paying M2+ prices for a loaded S650 for a car that’s objectively worse in most ways. I would also like 500+ WHP (aka 13hp/100lbs) which is difficult without adding a forced induction to the Mustang which adds an additional 15k+. At the end of the day I probably need to test drive both.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by BigBart33

A bit scared to ask because I know the hate American cars get here, but curious if anybody was/is cross-shopping the S650? The S650 has a few advantages, in my opinion: V8, potentially cheaper, honestly more tech if fully loaded particularly with the MT (available ACC, etc.), looks better in some ways (particularly the headlights and taillights, and colors), available convertible, and the biggest one to me, probably feels more connected. I didn’t particularly like my F87 since the steering feel and shifter kind of sucked, and the chassis was stiff and not all that well balanced while also seeming kind of distant. The interior was also subpar for a $60k sports car IMO. But I believe these issues have been mostly remedied with the new G87.

Quite a few disadvantages of the Mustang compared to the G87 M2, which makes me believe the M2 is probably the better car, some of which is speculative though: probably handles a fair bit better and hides its weight better, more refined with a better interior, the tech it does have is better (iDrive is top tier as we all know), better MT than the standard Getrag (albeit with the horrible rubbery shifter, but that can be changed), and much easier to get lots of HP from. Also likely feels a fair bit faster stock, torque curve is better and more WHP from the factory.

The biggest issue with the Mustang is it just seems too expensive. You’re paying M2+ prices for a loaded S650 for a car that’s objectively worse in most ways. I would also like 500+ WHP (aka 13hp/100lbs) which is difficult without adding a forced induction to the Mustang which adds an additional 15k+. At the end of the day I probably need to test drive both.

I had two mustangs (2016 auto, ecoboost & 2016 GT manual, top trim) in college. They were fun, but I honestly don't think I would ever consider one again.

Both cars left me stranded multiple times (2x fuel pump issues with the ecoboost, accessory belt snap w/ no warning on the GT) and both had quite a number of smaller issues that ended up with dealer visits. My Macan, Jag XE and Stinger were all far more reliable and worry free. On top of that the interior felt incredibly cheap. The biggest detractor, to me at least, is how freakin common they are. I like oddball cars (hence the XE and Stinger) and seeing Mustangs everywhere ruined that for me.

All that to say the dark horse specifically looks like a cool car and I'd love to drive one sometime. But for $65k I can't find anything close to the G87 (the way I have it specced) that I'd be happy with, Mustang or otherwise.

[zero21]

I strongly considered the value propositon of both the Mustang and even though I'm not a Chevy guy, the Camaro (better overall package than the Mustang IMO).

At the end of the day, my wife looked at me goes: "do you really consider yourself part of that group of owners?" The answer was a resounding "no". Not that I'm better or worse, but that mullets and engine revving in the middle of the night literally make people everywhere judge this group heavily (more so the Dodge Challenger/Charger crowd). The level of sheer idiocy of the people who drive these cars makes me never want to own another American sports car.

When you stack that up with the interior upgrades of the new M2, and overall feeling of solidity in the chassis, it was an easy choice.

[BigBart33]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

I had two mustangs (2016 auto, ecoboost & 2016 GT manual, top trim) in college. They were fun, but I honestly don't think I would ever consider one again.

Both cars left me stranded multiple times (2x fuel pump issues with the ecoboost, accessory belt snap w/ no warning on the GT) and both had quite a number of smaller issues that ended up with dealer visits. My Macan, Jag XE and Stinger were all far more reliable and worry free. On top of that the interior felt incredibly cheap. The biggest detractor, to me at least, is how freakin common they are. I like oddball cars (hence the XE and Stinger) and seeing Mustangs everywhere ruined that for me.

All that to say the dark horse specifically looks like a cool car and I'd love to drive one sometime. But for $65k I can't find anything close to the G87 (the way I have it specced) that I'd be happy with, Mustang or otherwise.

Yep, I feel you on reliability. The Coyote itself is extremely stout but I worry about everything around it. It’s funny because if you go the Mustang forums people will cry about BMW reliability but I don’t see a newer one ever leaving me stranded.

It seems the new interior should be a major step up, but I need to sit in one to see if it’s just lipstick on a pig. Agreed on how common they are, but for at least the first year or so they’ll be pretty unique.

Agreed completely on value, $65k for essentially the same engine you get in a $40k Mustang, but with critical features like perf suspension and the Tremec is ridiculous. I think if they’d have brought back the GT350 with the Voodoo it would be no contest for me.

Originally Posted by zero21

I strongly considered the value propositon of both the Mustang and even though I'm not a Chevy guy, the Camaro (better overall package than the Mustang IMO).

At the end of the day, my wife looked at me goes: "do you really consider yourself part of that group of owners?" The answer was a resounding "no". Not that I'm better or worse, but that mullets and engine revving in the middle of the night literally make people everywhere judge this group heavily (more so the Dodge Challenger/Charger crowd). The level of sheer idiocy of the people who drives these cars makes me never want to own another American sports car.

When you stack that up with the interior upgrades of the new M2, and overall feeling of solidity in the chassis, it was an easy choice.

Agreed on crowd lol. Generally not a fan of muscle/pony car guys. Tbf kids in clapped and/or riced out Beemers are pretty bad too lmao. However, the car culture here in the Bay Area is pretty chill, less rednecks with V8s who think they’re hot shit compared to where I’m from, so I’m not too worried either way. Forums for both platforms have their own culture issues, though overall I like the BMW forum community substantially more.

Yeah the interior on the F87 was way better than the S550 and 7th gen Camaro, but I need to sit in both the G87 and S650 to see how they compare. The Alpha chassis was a lot better than the F87 but I’m thinking this is no longer the case reading comparisons between the G-series cars and the last-gen pony cars.

[Humdizzle]

the dark horse will be a better performance car and more exciting drive when you're on it. V8, tremec, shorter wheelbase, magnaride suspension. In the past the M2 was significantly lighter than the GT350. But now they are about the same. M2 will be a much better daily driver, lower NVH, nicer interior.

Mustangs/Camaros still have the issue of being everywhere which would prevent me from buying one. even a regular 2 series is a pretty rare site on the road.

[BigBart33]

Didn’t realize the wheelbase on the S650 was shorter. Pretty marginal difference though.

Wonder how Magneride compares to the adaptive dampers on the new BMWs.. Magneride is certainly the best suspension I’ve had the pleasure of using so far.

[Wheelwright]

The Mustangs are looking more and more like Camaros with each generation, to the point where the new one is almost indistinguishable from the side profile. So why not consider the real deal instead of the imitation ? The Camaro has old-school, charming, no-nonsense personality, without the geriatric image of the Challenger. For example I like how they organized the gauges in the Camaro with two main ones, and four smaller ones in between, which brings to mind Lancia Delta Integrale. No gimmicky, hard-to-read, style-over-substance computer graphs like in the new M2 (the Mustang has at least an option to display fox-body gauges in digital form). So if I were in the market for a new car I would also consider the Camaro, especially 1LE.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BigBart33

Wonder how Magneride compares to the adaptive dampers on the new BMWs.. Magneride is certainly the best suspension I’ve had the pleasure of using so far.

Magneride is superior to BMW adaptive dampers. BMW should have switched years ago.

[Ravenseal]

Camaro > Mustang

[BigBart33]

I like Camaros as well but they’re getting dated with no 8th gen in sight. And they feel like you’re in a tank which is terrible.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

the dark horse will be a better performance car and more exciting drive when you're on it. V8, tremec, shorter wheelbase, magnaride suspension. In the past the M2 was significantly lighter than the GT350. But now they are about the same. M2 will be a much better daily driver, lower NVH, nicer interior.

Mustangs/Camaros still have the issue of being everywhere which would prevent me from buying one. even a regular 2 series is a pretty rare site on the road.

Agree the Dark Horse will be a quicker track tool. Most likely provide a more exciting drive, but with less refinement. The problem will likely be getting a Dark Horse allocation. Apparently, most dealers have gotten only 1 allocation. Some larger dealers getting a few more, most I have seen is 5 allocations at one dealer.

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by BigBart33

I like Camaros as well but they’re getting dated with no 8th gen in sight. And they feel like you’re in a tank which is terrible.

The new Mustang is not much better based on the side profile, because although it has a slightly larger greenhouse, its side and rear visibility seem equally bad. At least the Camaro has a panoramic camera built into the rear mirror, and can be ordered with a sunroof and white interior, which should brighten up the interior a bit.

[npirnia]

I was cross-shopping these 2 cars, but a couple of small issues pushed me to the M2. Like Zero21, my wife has a bit of an “F-body” bias that is likely the result of being a teen in the 90s. Fox body Mustangs were associated with a certain personality and she has a hard time shaking the association!

That issue aside, it depends on your use case and priorities. I’m pretty sure the M2 has more power and will be a bit quicker, but naturally aspirated engines have more personality and tend to be more fun to operate. The S58 (and B58) have very impressive NVH characteristics, but this can diminish the fun of a weekend romp a bit.

In general, the M2 will be more comfortable and quiet in regular use. It is also smaller dimensionally with a similar sized back seat. The length difference has a big impact for me since I live in the SF Bay Area and everything is very tight around here. A 180” length car is much easier to use than a 190” car - this is certainly a local issue, but still helpful in many ways.

Lastly, the latest Mustang looks good, but is also a highly derivative design. It looks like an S550 blended with the latest Camaro. I became interested in the M2 after seeing the first leaked images. It is recognizable as a BMW, but very much its own design that doesn’t look like an evolution of the prior F generation. I really like that.

My feeling is that if you plan to use this car as a daily, then M2 is probably the better choice.

If it is a weekend toy (point A to point A car), then the Mustang may have some advantages from an experience standpoint.

Either would be a good and fun car.

-Nick

[mynameisnick4]

I somewhat thought about it since it's pretty much the only other option if you want a 400HP+ MT RWD sports car WITH a backseat and don't want to go into the $80k+ price range.

[ourlee]

At the end of the day, my wife looked at me goes: "do you really consider yourself part of that group of owners?"

Mine asks the same thing about the c8 lol (I love the c8)

[mynameisnick4]

Originally Posted by ourlee

At the end of the day, my wife looked at me goes: "do you really consider yourself part of that group of owners?"

Mine asks the same thing about the c8 lol (I love the c8)

Some people would scoff at that thinking but I am not going to lie, I thought the same thing. Plus the most comparable version of the new Mustang is the "Dark Horse" which, in my opinion, a terrible model name. The badge is also pretty bad too.

[BigBart33]

Originally Posted by npirnia

-Nick

Some good points. I’m also in the Bay Area. Length doesn’t bother me much, we’re at an advantage in any coupe vs the giant SUVs all over the road nowadays lol. I agree that the M2 will likely have substantially less NVH but perhaps with an exhaust, SSK, and tune or JB4 it will be similarly visceral. What I’d like to do is get a convertible S650 and an M5 but unfortunately I’m not made of money.

Originally Posted by mynameisnick4

I somewhat thought about it since it's pretty much the only other option if you want a 400HP+ MT RWD sports car WITH a backseat and don't want to go into the $80k+ price range.

Yeah, the CT4V BW is the only other option outside of the BMW triplets and I currently have an ATS-V so looking for something different.

Originally Posted by mynameisnick4

Some people would scoff at that thinking but I am not going to lie, I thought the same thing. Plus the most comparable version of the new Mustang is the "Dark Horse" witch, in my opinion, a terrible model name. The badge is also pretty bad too.

Yes, they couldn’t have picked a worse name and logo. The Dark Horse as a whole is disappointing, as was the Mach 1, particularly compared to the GT350. I do like the Blue Ember paint though 🥵 Maybe the rumored GT3 variant will be the way to go.. depending on what balance they strike between street & track.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by ourlee

At the end of the day, my wife looked at me goes: "do you really consider yourself part of that group of owners?"

Mine asks the same thing about the c8 lol (I love the c8)

The C8 is an amazing vehicle - let alone value. Love that paint color as well.

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by zero21

The C8 is an amazing vehicle - let alone value. Love that paint color as well.

Yeah, I look good standing next to that color, matches my socks

[Squidget]

I am a stickler for visibility and greenhouse, and that disbarred me from the Camaro.

I have sat in both the F87 and G87, and the new interior is much improved.

I don't consider the (existing) Mustangs to be as "flexible" as the G87. On a comfy-to-trackable axis, the G87 can reach a little further on both ends.

As to the Dark Horse, it's compelling but concrete evidence is a little scarce. This will change over the next few weeks! But at this exact moment, I wouldn't be willing to gamble, Ford has fumbled on the Mustang before. Looking forward to learning more, hope it will be great.

As far as a flexible, comfortable, and sporty 4-seater, I really only cross-shop the CT4V-BW against the G87, at this second. If you drop either comfort or the extra 2 seats, then there are a LOT of options.

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by BigBart33

Wonder how Magneride compares to the adaptive dampers on the new BMWs.. Magneride is certainly the best suspension I’ve had the pleasure of using so far.

I had a 2017 SS 1LE. The adaptive damping in the G87 is a big step up from the F87, but I’d say GM’s magnetic dampers on the Alpha platform are way ahead of BMW. The G87 does remind me of the 1LE when it comes to grip. Both cars can carry ridiculous amounts of speed through corners without batting an eye.

[Bungus]

Mustang is overpriced, thats for sure