[wavyyyy]

Not really a review but an instagram caption. A bit disappointing as he’s probably my favorite car journalist. Interesting nonetheless.

“Verdict G87 M2: No longer a lunatic on a leash.

Every time a new M product comes out, we shit on it. That’s because BMW constantly changes its own recipe:

1MCoupe was a homicidal maniac at all times; an absolute heartthrob ❤️

First M2 was a little less unhinged, a little less personality. I liked all variants until I slid each around for filming. Then, I LOVED them. Best at 11/10ths; still fun in normal driving.

New M2 accelerates the maturing: WAY more buttoned-down. Likely faster on road and track. Unflappable chassis. Puts power down commendably. But no longer stupid-fun in normal driving.

It feels like a shrunken M4 rather than its own thing. And vs M4, you get no more fun in exchange for the way-too-cramped back seats (I can’t sit upright: Pic 10) and exhausting, sand-in-the-dampers ride.

I’m thrilled that a 6MT RWD coupe exists, but M2 is a luxury car pretending to be a sports coupe. It’s just too isolated. 108-mph 3rd gear means you don’t shift that much anyway. And as before, S58+MT=lag you don’t notice with the short-geared 8AT.

The whole car seems designed by not-car-people, from the dangerously complicated UX (home screen has 4.2 million tiny icons) to the Marketing gauge cluster (why is gear indicator 2x the size of speedo? I don’t need to be told what gear I’m in, I put it there!) to the Scrotum-Rest carbon seats (no driver needs support between their legs.) Gimmick über Funktion!

I’m also concerned about the horizontal oil cooler right at the part of the car you’ll slam into a parking curb (Pic 9)

On paper, it’s everything an enthusiast wants: ludicrous grip, bolstery seats, massive firepower, immediate brakes, precise steering, well-controlled body, 2-door shape. In reality, it reveals itself as too distant, too removed, and working too hard to cover its egregious 3800-lb curb weight.

I can’t imagine spending $75k on this (MSRP) when I could buy a loaded BRZ *and* a loaded GR86 and have $11k left over for tires, brakes, and wrinkle cream from all my smiling.

This might be “better,” as the Germans would insist, but the last M2 was more fun.”

[DSTR]

He lives in a narrow operational window. He should just drive Caterhams and move on and stop reviewing.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by DSTR

He lives in a narrow operational window. He should just drive Caterhams and move on and stop reviewing.

This is basically what I argued in my response to him, what RandyPobst backed me up on

It's better that the car is more tame and capable than the last, even if if professional car reviewers don't prefer them, they better suit the average driver (which we are).

[LCDRJohn]

You know, If folks want a "lunatic on a leash", just put the rear tires on the front, and the front on the rear.

Then get Earl Scheib to do the alignment.

There ya have it: A car that begs to not go straight and can't handle the power. Everyone is happy now!

[Humdizzle]

here is his current garage: https://www.hagerty.com/drivers-club...e/jasoncammisa

makes sense why he doesn't like the M2.

odd though because he seemed to really like the G80. but maybe its because he viewed it more as a 'agile M5'.

[02M3ForMe]

The G87 will apply more g-force to your body on practically every axis than the last car, and will still step out on you if you turn off all the traction and stability software. When you're driving normally, the car is comfortable and safe. For anyone looking for a performance car, the car offers a fantastic ownership experience and is objectively excellent.

I would absolutely rather have one G87 than a fleet of GR86s.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by DSTR

He lives in a narrow operational window. He should just drive Caterhams and move on and stop reviewing.

I have stopped reading him long ago.

[Ravenseal]

I can’t imagine spending $75k on this (MSRP) when I could buy a loaded BRZ *and* a loaded GR86 and have $11k left over for tires, brakes, and wrinkle cream from all my smiling.

Idiotic comparison but ok.

[AlpineBoost]

I like Jason and enjoy the Hagerty videos with him, but I'm interested to see how their M2 review video turns out given his comments here vs. the review from last month. I actually find a lot of positives in what he's saying for what I'm looking for in a car, but the part about the BRZ/GR86 is plain silly and disconnected from reality.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/new-ca...rivers-choice/

2023 BMW M2 Review: Driver’s choice

...

That playfulness is what really separates the 2023 BMW M2 from its bigger M3 and M4 siblings. It remains the most driver-oriented, most engaging, most focused car in the M stable. Cadillac’s CT4-V Blackwing may have the more eager and agile chassis, and the Audi RS3’s five-cylinder may be the more special engine, but the the latest M2 is a good reminder that there’s still a lot of Motorsport know-how in the halls of BMW M."

Highs: Jewel of an engine, confident and poises chassis, excellent overall balance.

Lows: Suspension could be more controlled, steering lacks nuanced feedback, interior surfaces don’t impress.

Takeaway: The M car to get, and the one that tracks most closely to enthusiasts’ image of the brand.

[jkoral]

Cammisa is not nearly as annoying in print as hearing his voice in videos (which I refuse to watch/listen to).

He can keep his BRZ and GR86, I'll take a lightly used G87 in a handful of years when I'm ready to upgrade.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by zero21

This is basically what I argued in my response to him, what RandyPobst backed me up on

It's better that the car is more tame and capable than the last, even if if professional car reviewers don't prefer them, they better suit the average driver (which we are).

Calling them 'professional' is really generous in some cases.

[LCDRJohn]

Originally Posted by DSTR

Calling them 'professional' is really generous in some cases.

+100

Lots of these guys started out with a GoPro, and a few years later are all of a sudden: "Professional Car reviewers"

Some I even like, like that fat guy ("Matt something-or-other") who started reviewing for R&T. Turns out he's just a trust-fund kid who had a youtube channel. He has zero experience beyond what we all have here, and maybe less in many cases.

But here is what kills me: What make him understand cars better than someone like Justin Bell?? (the son of the Legend, Derek Bell) I know justin, and besides campaigning & winning w/ an Oreca Viper at Lemans, he has an insight into the engineering/car set-up that folks who've never run a pro team will ever experience. Yet, he's doing Dodge commercials and has a humble Youtube channel. The problem is that these larger online media companies want the younger buyer that digs snarky Instagram reviews. And they all seem to be just a little too much like the Drift-crowd/ Fast&Furious follower for me.

[zero21]

To be fair, I called them "professionals" in reference to people who exclusively review cars. Not people who produce videos and scripts. If someone's career is car reviews/automative journalism and they earn money doing it, technically their "profession"is professional.

It's a hard line to draw these days between seemingly affable fruitcakes on YouTube who then criticize the hell out of stuff and those who do it because just they just like to drive cars.

The problem with doing anything a lot is that you become critical. And a lot of these folks have just lost their way.

I consider Jason a professional, despite disagreeing with his analysis.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

+100

Lots of these guys started out with a GoPro, and a few years later are all of a sudden: "Professional Car reviewers"

Some I even like, like that fat guy ("Matt something-or-other") who started reviewing for R&T. Turns out he's just a trust-fund kid who had a youtube channel. He has zero experience beyond what we all have here, and maybe less in many cases.

But here is what kills me: What make him understand cars better than someone like Justin Bell?? (the son of the Legend, Derek Bell) I know justin, and besides campaigning & winning w/ an Oreca Viper at Lemans, he has an insight into the engineering/car set-up that folks who've never run a pro team will ever experience. Yet, he's doing Dodge commercials and has a humble Youtube channel. The problem is that these larger online media companies want the younger buyer that digs snarky Instagram reviews. And they all seem to be just a little too much like the Drift-crowd/ Fast&Furious follower for me.

It does seem to be a self-licking ice cream cone kind of thing. Jason is a journalist. Does that diminish his input? I don't know but he doesn't have the pedigree you would expect from a professional driver. However, over time, he gets to drive more cars and learns things etc so maybe he's more knowledgeable today than he was 20 years ago. I don't care for his bombastic, hyperbolic style. Maybe for a couple videos it's okay but it has worn old for me and I don't find his input always valuable nor accurate in all cases. Again, he is there for clicks and views, so take it with a grain of salt.

With that said, race car drivers aren't necessarily good reviewers either. I think you really need someone with a good balance of technical, engineering, business understanding, and in the case of street cars, an understanding of what makes a good performance car.

I read a lot of reviewers who tend to use a race car as a benchmark when those vehicles are terrible consumer sports cars. A car that would excite someone like Max Verstappen (supposition of course), probably isn't a car the masses would like. Is there a cross-section, probably, but he will probably want a more extreme car than the typical enthusiast will want to live with day to day.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by c1pher

It does seem to be a self-licking ice cream cone kind of thing. Jason is a journalist. Does that diminish his input? I don't know but he doesn't have the pedigree you would expect from a professional driver. However, over time, he gets to drive more cars and learns things etc so maybe he's more knowledgeable today than he was 20 years ago. I don't care for his bombastic, hyperbolic style. Maybe for a couple videos it's okay but it has worn old for me and I don't find his input always valuable nor accurate in all cases. Again, he is there for clicks and views, so take it with a grain of salt.

With that said, race car drivers aren't necessarily good reviewers either. I think you really need someone with a good balance of technical, engineering, business understanding, and in the case of street cars, an understanding of what makes a good performance car.

I read a lot of reviewers who tend to use a race car as a benchmark when those vehicles are terrible consumer sports cars. A car that would excite someone like Max Verstappen (supposition of course), probably isn't a car the masses would like. Is there a cross-section, probably, but he will probably want a more extreme car than the typical enthusiast will want to live with day to day.

One of the things I realized recently is I do not need a stick shift with 460whp to have fun driving. I'm one of those people who can cruise at 55mph on a back road and love it all the same. For better or worse

[Tag]

Originally Posted by zero21

One of the things I realized recently is I do not need a stick shift with 460whp to have fun driving. I'm one of those people who can cruise at 55mph on a back road and love it all the same. For better or worse

You've previously mentioned that the MT didn't have the advertised torque below ~3.5K. If you could do it again, would you have gotten the AT instead?

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

here is his current garage: https://www.hagerty.com/drivers-club...e/jasoncammisa

Not going to lie, that 190E is clean.

[TractionControlDelete]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

You know, If folks want a "lunatic on a leash", just put the rear tires on the front, and the front on the rear.

Then get Earl Scheib to do the alignment.

There ya have it: A car that begs to not go straight and can't handle the power. Everyone is happy now!

Turn off DSC fully

[jmg]

Originally Posted by wavyyyy

Not really a review but an instagram caption. A bit disappointing as he’s probably my favorite car journalist. Interesting nonetheless.

“Verdict G87 M2: No longer a lunatic on a leash.

I haven't driven the new M2 yet, but it does seem in line from every other review. It's a more stable car, definitely more capable than the previous M2 at the track, but doesn't have the excitement of the F87. I didn't love the F87 because I felt the F80 was more capable lap after lap. It wasn't until I really hooned on an M2 Comp taking it sideways on a closed course did I finally "get it". My G82 is my track car, but that "lunatic on a leash" was exactly what I want in a daily driver. It's something fun even off the track.

Ironically, what I wanted in the G82, a more stable, sharper M4 is perfect for a track car, but the opposite is true for the G87. I kind of want it to be a little rougher around the edges. The difference in character between the M4 and the M2 is what appeals to me, but if what Cammisa is saying about the G87 is true, that the M2 is just a shrunken M4, it wasn't what I wanted to hear. I love the M4. Most capable M3/4 ever made (come at me!). But the M2 should be its own thing. I'm hoping it is when I get to drive one!

[wavyyyy]

Originally Posted by jmg

I haven't driven the new M2 yet, but it does seem in line from every other review. It's a more stable car, definitely more capable than the previous M2 at the track, but doesn't have the excitement of the F87. I didn't love the F87 because I felt the F80 was more capable lap after lap. It wasn't until I really hooned on an M2 Comp taking it sideways on a closed course did I finally "get it". My G82 is my track car, but that "lunatic on a leash" was exactly what I want in a daily driver. It's something fun even off the track.

Ironically, what I wanted in the G82, a more stable, sharper M4 is perfect for a track car, but the opposite is true for the G87. I kind of want it to be a little rougher around the edges. The difference in character between the M4 and the M2 is what appeals to me, but if what Cammisa is saying about the G87 is true, that the M2 is just a shrunken M4, wasn't what I wanted to hear. I love the M4. Most capable M3/4 ever made (come at me!). But the M2 should be its own thing. I'm hoping it is when I get to drive one!

Seems like you’re in the same boat as me. The M2 is supposed to be the more fun one and the M3/M4 are the more serious ones.

That’s what Cammisa and TH are saying as well but you’ll be chastised around these parts for feeling that way. Objectively my G80 drives better than my F87C did but honestly the F87C was more fun. I never felt safe in it and that was charming.

[///M TOWN]

I like Jason, he likes to keep things on the lighter side

He’s a pro at what he does, and has a great sense of humor and he’s consistent, so I have no issue with him

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by wavyyyy

Seems like you’re in the same boat as me. The M2 is supposed to be the more fun one and the M3/M4 are the more serious ones.

That’s what Cammisa and TH are saying as well but you’ll be chastised around these parts for feeling that way. Objectively my G80 drives better than my F87C did but honestly the F87C was more fun. I never felt safe in it and that was charming.

Meh, it's well understood that the G80 is less tailhappy, more planted, not really a lot of argument there. It's more a debate about what "fun" is. Is it fun to be planted, precise and thus faster, or is it fun to be tailhappy and tossable. It's "track vs hoon," it's hard to make a car to do both at the same time.

I think the G8x/G87 family is obviously not intended to be quite as hoonable, but it could be modded in that direction. I fully expect we'll see examples in the future.

1. Most importantly, it is RWD, and still has sufficient torque to break the tires away. (For the moment, put aside the problem of the MT's tall first gear and torque limiting.) We'll need to temper expectations because the S58 is never gonna act like the B58 at low revs, tho.

2. It is running grippy 285s on the back, you can use "worse" tires on the rear.

3. The obvious changes to the rear suspension, depending on your tolerance for risk.

4. BMW allows you to turn the nannies all the way off.

The G87 is never going to be an 86 or miata, and definitely not a rally car. We can only ask so much from a daily driver BMW 4 seater. But I think it can definitely be made more lively.

There likely won't be a G87C, but it would be hilarious if they made one and the only difference was making it a hooning machine. Short 1st gear, looser rear springs, narrower rear tires, boost threshold pulled down to 2K. That would be nuts. Never gonna happen, OFC.