[Ravenseal]

I was watching The Topher review the 6MT Supra and his take away was that there is no reason to shift that car - in or out - of third gear when driving on backroads; the power is just always there, unlike more “fun” manual cars like the BRZ86, Cayman, Miata, etc. where you have to hunt for power.

There’s simply no reason to downshift, left alone upshift without reaching outlandish speeds. He argues this takes the entrainment factor out of the manual transmission, and that the 8ZF makes it more fun if you want to bang through gears.

It sounds like the M2 will suffer the same problem.

[MMMGuy60]

What a bunch of BS. I had a C7 7 Speed Vette and I can still run through the gears in tight mountain road. You can be in 2-4 gears depending on how high you want to rev out your car. On a Brz, you will have to do more shifting that's for sure. On a higher powered car with longer gears, you can get away with less shifting or staying in one gear but you can still run through the gears. You have the options.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

What a bunch of BS. I had a C7 7 Speed Vette and I can still run through the gears in tight mountain road. You can be in 2-4 gears depending on how high you want to rev out your car. On a Brz, you will have to do more shifting that's for sure. On a higher powered car with longer gears, you can get away with less shifting or staying in one gear but you can still run through the gears. You have the options.

The C7 is naturally aspirated. Power delivery is very different on the LT1 than on the B58/S58.

[boostspoon]

Probably best to envision the thrill you’ve had in the past when driving in the backroads.

Are you driving balls out or taking it pretty tame with somewhat increased entry and wot exits?

Engagement from a 6MT makes it a drivers car for me. It can change one day, but the nostalgia and thrill is priceless.

If I envision auto giving me thrill, it’s from the upshift sounds, not from the shorter gear ratios or quick shifts (as you can still feel delays with the ZF). So if I have to go wot and upshift, I’m probably going way too fast in this car to enjoy the nice backroads where I’m better off at a track.

Real question: Coming from 6MT driving habits on fun cars, does it feel off to have rpm’s hang high while decelerating in auto? I naturally look for extra shifts up/down.

[WBRacing]

I have about 1700 miles on my G87.
If you are pushing it on some fun twisties I have found I bounce around between 2, 3, & 4. If you’re stuck in 3rd I say you should find better roads.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by WBRacing

I have about 1700 miles on my G87.
If you are pushing it on some fun twisties I have found I bounce around between 2, 3, & 4. If you’re stuck in 3rd I say you should find better roads.

Most of the roads around me are extremely twisty. Very few opportunities to drive a 450 horsepower car wide open throttle or close to the limit. Nature of mountain driving.

[WBRacing]

I would say your have to dip into 2nd on a tighter blind corner particularly if it’s uphill then.

[MMMGuy60]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

The C7 is naturally aspirated. Power delivery is very different on the LT1 than on the B58/S58.

There is no different rather NA or boosted. Every manual cars i ever had I use 2,3,4 gears for mountain/canyon craving. I had cars like Miata, Wrx, Mustang, Corvette.

The point is you can still run all the gears as you please. Just because you can stay in one gear doesn't mean you will. Part of the fun of driving a manual is gear shift.

I can drive my C7 on the highway with just 5th but I still use 4th, 6th and 7th just for the fun of shifting when i feel like it.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Most of the roads around me are extremely twisty. Very few opportunities to drive a 450 horsepower car wide open throttle or close to the limit. Nature of mountain driving.

Yes. Mechanically, the S58 has a nice wide torque table. So for sake of argument say third gear is optimal from 50 to 100 MPH, (simplifying a little). Whereas second peaks at around 60 MPH.

So yes, sure, there are totally going to be roads where you would drive in third gear all the way.

If you are in twisty spots where you don't want to get sideways, such as the side of a mountain, it makes sense to stay in higher, less torquey gears.

Edit: I would personally not limit drive on the side of a mountain, but I'm not here to judge lol.

[ronin13013]

Its very manageable. You can stay in second and step out a little in a corner or stay in second past fifty and red line and chirp 3rd.

Originally Posted by Squidget

Yes. Mechanically, the S58 has a nice wide torque table. So for sake of argument say third gear is optimal from 50 to 100 MPH, (simplifying a little). Whereas second peaks at around 60 MPH.

So yes, sure, there are totally going to be roads where you would drive in third gear all the way.

If you are in twisty spots where you don't want to get sideways, such as the side of a mountain, it makes sense to stay in higher, less torquey gears.

Edit: I would personally not limit drive on the side of a mountain, but I'm not here to judge lol.

[Humdizzle]

in theory, yes you can use 3rd gear for any sort of driving where you'll be 15-90mph or whatever the redline is at. but if you want the most performance you will be shifting.

the supra is different because it has a broader powerband and less weight than the S58 cars. It has an identical 5-60mph to the G82 manual. G82 is lighter and more power than the G87.

i've never found a ZF8 that was fun to shift. so there's that part too. the downshifts are laggy. i'd rather have a dct or shift myself so i can at least feel something.

I'd still go manual for the M2. Get a mild tune to wake up the low end, autosolutions ssk, and ucp to improve the shift feel.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

I was watching The Topher review the 6MT Supra and his take away was that there is no reason to shift that car - in or out - of third gear when driving on backroads; the power is just always there, unlike more “fun” manual cars like the BRZ86, Cayman, Miata, etc. where you have to hunt for power.

There’s simply no reason to downshift, left alone upshift without reaching outlandish speeds. He argues this takes the entrainment factor out of the manual transmission, and that the 8ZF makes it more fun if you want to bang through gears.

It sounds like the M2 will suffer the same problem.

That is what a racer would want during time trial. Before people said the 6MT doesn't shift as fast as the ZF8. Now you don't have to shift, the power is always there and have the advantage of less drivetrain loss than the ZF8, plus the car is lighter than one with the ZF8. You will be faster in the 6MT on backroads!

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

I was watching The Topher review the 6MT Supra and his take away was that there is no reason to shift that car - in or out - of third gear when driving on backroads; the power is just always there, unlike more “fun” manual cars like the BRZ86, Cayman, Miata, etc. where you have to hunt for power.

There’s simply no reason to downshift, left alone upshift without reaching outlandish speeds. He argues this takes the entrainment factor out of the manual transmission, and that the 8ZF makes it more fun if you want to bang through gears.

It sounds like the M2 will suffer the same problem.

I don't think so. My 2016 340i has a B58 and a six speed manual with the exact same ratios as the G87. I shift all the time when running a back road. We have really winding roads here in NorCal and my typical speeds on a back road are 30-80ish. I'm usually running between 2nd and 3rd. The 340i's iteration of the B58 (first version of the engine) has a more linear power curve than the S58 and there is still a real benefit to keeping the engine above 3500 rpms - mostly around responsiveness and to have more authority for weight transfer (both on power and engine braking).

I guess you could just leave it in 3rd, but it will be slower and less responsive than shifting. And at that rate, why not leave it in 4th or 5th? There is enough torque to accelerate in those gears.

I'm pretty sure that there will be plenty of reasons to work the gearbox in the G87.

-Nick

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

I was watching The Topher review the 6MT Supra and his take away was that there is no reason to shift that car - in or out - of third gear when driving on backroads; the power is just always there, unlike more “fun” manual cars like the BRZ86, Cayman, Miata, etc. where you have to hunt for power.

There’s simply no reason to downshift, left alone upshift without reaching outlandish speeds. He argues this takes the entrainment factor out of the manual transmission, and that the 8ZF makes it more fun if you want to bang through gears.

It sounds like the M2 will suffer the same problem.

I daily drove a manual Miata for 7 years. I’m so over driving a slow car. Watching jack from geese tune his 86, looks like a nightmare.

[JustinHEMI]

I spent most of my break in miles in 3rd, 2nd, and 4th. The video I posted was primarily 3rd and 2nd.

Do with that info what you will.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by WBRacing

I have about 1700 miles on my G87.
If you are pushing it on some fun twisties I have found I bounce around between 2, 3, & 4. If you’re stuck in 3rd I say you should find better roads.

And this.

[Ravenseal]

C&D posted the ratios for the 6MT.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

C&D posted the ratios for the 6MT.

Damn, wish we had speed in gear for the old cars to compare. The ratios/final drive are the same, but the redlines are different and the rear tire circumference is probably different as well.

Edit: I did math. G87 Rear tire circumference: 83.9 inches

F87 rear tire circumference: 82.6 inches

[lovelyM2]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I spent most of my break in miles in 3rd, 2nd, and 4th. The video I posted was primarily 3rd and 2nd.

Do with that info what you will.

Which video were you referring to?

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by lovelyM2

Which video were you referring to?

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Damn, wish we had speed in gear for the old cars to compare. The ratios/final drive are the same, but the redlines are different and the rear tire circumference is probably different as well.

Edit: I did math. G87 Rear tire circumference: 83.9 inches

F87 rear tire circumference: 82.6 inches

We do, I'll grab some of those in a moment and post them dating back the E46.

Though spoiler alert: the speed in gear is within a few percent for all the 6-sp manual M3s and M2s of the past 25 years.

Compared to the E46 M3, the G87's first three gears are 1 mph shorter, 3 mph longer, and 4 mph longer - a pretty small difference given the massive difference in engine output and torque.

But I'll post some pictures in a bit.

-Nick

[npirnia]

Here are the speed in gears for a range of smallish BMWs of the past 20+ years. It starts with the G87 and then moves to the F82 M4, F87 M2, E92 M3, E82 135i, and E46 M3.

Its clear that BMW has defined targets for each gear given that speeds are all within a few percent over 20+ years despite big changes in engine configuration between models (and power output).

Clearly there is nothing new about the G87's gearing and it is strange that people want to complain about it now. A 100+ MPH 3rd gear has been pretty standard for performance cars since the late 90s!

Cars with shorter gears are cars without much power....

-Nick