[rak299]

I cannot find any sort of sales figures that show Base vs. Competition for M3 or M4. Do those things exist?

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by rak299

I cannot find any sort of sales figures that show Base vs. Competition for M3 or M4. Do those things exist?

I'm sure BMW knows, but I suspect that is proprietary information. I think we know that the take rate on 6MT cars is pretty low.

[bri1042]

There was a poll thread going a while ago, but its well buried now. BMW isn't generous with sales numbers of this sort. Even their total M car sales figures include the M-lites nowadays.

[golf4kal]

There’s a video done by BMW for the G8X release that said it would be ~6-7% but I think those were estimates not actual sales figures.

[geko29]

Originally Posted by golf4kal

There’s a video done by BMW for the G8X release that said it would be ~6-7% but I think those were estimates not actual sales figures.

I thought it was more like 9%, but agreed it was their launch-era projection of what they expected the breakdown to be, not anything based on unit sales.

[rak299]

I realize they don't usually publish that kind of stuff. but in this case, the MT is a separate model, it might be published

[SoCalBimmerGuy]

Originally Posted by rak299

I cannot find any sort of sales figures that show Base vs. Competition for M3 or M4. Do those things exist?

I was curious about this also and spoke to my Dealer about a week ago and the manual take rate in the US has been less than 5% each year.

[smithf80]

Originally Posted by rak299

I realize they don't usually publish that kind of stuff. but in this case, the MT is a separate model, it might be published

It still isn't a separate model, it's just that only the RWD model can be optioned with 6MT, you can still get an auto RWD.

[GearRex]

For the F8x series, in the US, the Manual Transmission was nearly 40% of total the total production run. Globally the take rate was 18.5%, so most the F80 series manual transmission cars were sold in the USA.



I am referencing the numbers in this post:
https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...30&postcount=1

On the G8x series, I don't know, but I suspect that due to the de-tuned nature of the "base" model (manual transmission), the take rate is a lot less.

Of course, BMW did this on purpose to drive buyers to get the more expensive Competition, and Competition X-Drive versions, and kill the manual transmission in the process. This way they can say "you see? We made a manual transmission and most buyers did not want it". Had they made the Competition, and Competition X-Drive with a choice of manual or automatic transmission, the story would be a lot different.

How many of you would buy a Competition Model with the same power figures but equipped with a manual transmission?

[rak299]

Originally Posted by smithf80

It still isn't a separate model, it's just that only the RWD model can be optioned with 6MT, you can still get an auto RWD.

base and competition are separate

[geko29]

Originally Posted by GearRex

How many of you would buy a Competition Model with the same power figures but equipped with a manual transmission?

<raises hand> I spent months debating between a base G80 and a G83. What I really wanted was an M4 convertible with a 6MT. Power level was secondary, but if I could have gotten my M3 as a Competition and kept the third pedal, I 110% would have.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by GearRex

Of course, BMW did this on purpose to drive buyers to get the more expensive Competition, and Competition X-Drive versions, and kill the manual transmission in the process. This way they can say "you see? We made a manual transmission and most buyers did not want it".

Let's discuss this because I've had similar suspicions. Has there ever been a public statement, or even a private conversation that someone here has heard about, that explains why BMW weirdly made the base model "detuned" and manual only? I've wondered about this but can't come up with any answers other than they want to kill off the manual and this was their way of doing it.

For me, the manual was a must have and I prioritized that over more power. But it certainly made me have to choose between two things that I didn't want to have to choose between, and that's irritating for sure. While I get that interest in manual transmissions has declined over the past 20yrs, I think the one place where the manual still has a place is with car enthusiasts. And the enthusiast version is almost always the lower, wider, faster version with stickier tires and rougher suspension. We (enthusiasts) are the ones that routinely put up with less convenience and comfort for more fun. I bet a lot of people, including myself, would have gladly paid more for a Competition if they had offered this option. The base should have been the one with an automatic only option and the Competition should have come both ways.

It really makes no sense.

[LuvMyE92]

I thought I read somewhere that it was 25% for the manual, but none of the posts in this thread get even close to that.

I do remember last year when I was shopping for the F80 (used) there was a significant premium for a manual transmission car.

Now that I'm trying to sell my M4, it seems that this low desirability is coming back to bite me in the butt. It matters more when the cars are a bit older and more affordable. And as others noted, the reduced horsepower probably hurts resale as well. Bummer.

I still don't regret getting the manual.

FWIW I'm replacing the M4 with a new CT5V-BlackWing, and you can often find automatics at or close to MSRP whereas all manuals are selling at a premium. Automatic CT4V-BW are selling at discounts.

[smaglik]

I always laugh at the comments stating that passing on the manual is a no brainer because it comes with the detuned engine. How many owners actually drove the car to the point where the extra hp / tq matters? I'd guess that's less than the take rate of the manuals. It boils down to an 🍆 measuring contest at that point. I like to drive spirited, but even my detuned g80 in efficiency mode will chirp tires on aggressive upshifts. I dunno, seems like enough to me.

Additionally, I look forward to the premium I'll get when I eventually sell the car. The auto won't be as big a hit as the smg was in the e46 world, but enthusiasts won't be chasing down and willing to pay a premium on another bmw automatic, imo.

[geko29]

Originally Posted by vbb

Let's discuss this because I've had similar suspicions. Has there ever been a public statement, or even a private conversation that someone here has heard about, that explains why BMW weirdly made the base model "detuned" and manual only? I've wondered about this but can't come up with any answers other than they want to kill off the manual and this was their way of doing it.

The transmission (in particular, the clutch) is only rated for 450 lbft. That much is a fact. The presumption that we've all made based on that is BMW didn't want to invest any R&D and retooling money into a new transmission/clutch, so they detuned the engine to a nice, safe margin under the torque threshold.

I'm guessing that if this transmission/clutch combo (which I believe has been the same since at least the E90) could hold 525 lbft, they would have offered a manual Competition. I bet I also could have gotten my 335d with a clutch pedal as well if that were the case.

[Mike02z]

I absolutely would have gone with the M6 in the M4 if Icould have gotten it with the Competition package. My understanding is the current M6 can’t handle the torque of the additional tq of the Comp package. I can’t see BMW spending any money to get a better trans in the M3/M4 even if it would increase the take rate.

In my opinion losing that extra HP/TQ made the M6 a no-go for me. I’m betting the take rate would go up if they beefed up the M6. It still would be under 20% IMO.

[smithf80]

Originally Posted by geko29

<raises hand> I spent months debating between a base G80 and a G83. What I really wanted was an M4 convertible with a 6MT. Power level was secondary, but if I could have gotten my M3 as a Competition and kept the third pedal, I 110% would have.

Yes, but not all bases are 6MT

[nunzo]

Originally Posted by smithf80

Yes, but not all bases are 6MT

...yes they are.

M3/M4 Base 6MT
M3/M4 Comp RWD Auto
M3/M4 Comp AWD Auto
M3 CS Auto
M4 CSL Auto

That's the lineup unless I'm missing something?

[geko29]

Originally Posted by smithf80

Yes, but not all bases are 6MT

Go ahead and show us a non-competition G80/82/83 with an automatic then.

[vbb]

"Not all bases are 6MT" is just an incorrect statement. All your base are belong to 6MT.

Now, back to the discussion, I guess the reliability angle makes sense, that they didn't want to run that much torque through the transmission so they kept the numbers low, but damn, how hard would it have been to offer a slightly beefier clutch set up? I guess the answer is too hard/expensive because they didn't do it. Oh well.

The manual is something I use everytime I drive the car, the extra power would not be...so that's why I chose the base over the comp. But I wanted both!

[Penguinius]

[QUOTE=vbb;30445916]All your base are belong to 6MT.

Underated comment

[smithf80]

Yup, my mistake, for some reason I thought auto was still an option on the base.