[BackOnBlack]

Cars nowadays are so powerful, boasting well over 400 hp which wowed us in the past. Most sporty cars nowadays can reach 100 mph and beyond within just a few seconds, with 0-60 mph launches reaching well below 5 seconds. How do we enjoy such performance on the streets, while being responsible and considerate to other commuters’ safety? It is impossible. We hear many stories in which a few seconds of ‘fun’ runs on the streets and even interstates end with tragic results.

The BMW community has always been focused on performance driving. The BMW CCA’s driving events have always been well organized, highly attended, and highlighted the driving dynamics of all models BMW offered. BMW has always been recognized as an enthusiast brand and one that offers vehicles for all occasions, which can be driven in all seasons.

I am surprised to find that this trend apparently changed over the last decade or two. There are many threads on these forums comparing the G8x to other marques, and each contains numerous posts claiming how much better the latest BMW platform is compared to others. The only clear winner in these discussions appear to be Porsche. Maybe some of that is well-deserved and some of it is just myth. What is more surprising is the fact that fewer and fewer BMW owners get involved in amateur and fun racing at dedicated venues, and prefer to do bench racing on forums. Granted bench racing is safer, but is it really more fun? Would you not prefer to be on track, autox, or just driving to a winery, creamery, at a rally, etc., interacting with similar enthusiasts along the way? Surely, driving your latest super sport sedan/coupe should be more fun than just typing up some proving point about how much better your car is to others, no?

I always thought that SCCA Solo, ProSolo, and Time Trial events, particularly the Nationals finals, we great indicators for the best-performing sports cars and tires in the current market. When I checked the 2023 results, I was disappointed to find that there weren’t any G8x vehicles competing. G8x has been around for more than 2 years, surely someone would take on the development of the platform for competition. Well, apparently not. Even the F87, M2 platform, is not represented in any meaningful ways, just a few of them competed and none trophied.

On the other hand, there has been an explosion of Porsche GT4 and GT3 representation, Corvettes, and even the Supra. They all earned trophies and clinched the top 3 spots in each class they competed, stock, prepared, or modified.

I also checked the latest BMW CCA, SCCA, PCA, and Audi clubs’ HPDE entry lists, and again the story is similar. Very few G8x entries, negligible. There are many BMWs in those entry lists, but the majority are all previous models, not the G8x. This is possibly normal due to how new and expensive the platform is, but considering the latest Corvettes, 911s, Caymans, Camaros, etc. are in attendance in numbers, the cost of the vehicle should not be the show stopper. Given how enthusiastic the G8x user is, if these forums are any indication, it is disappointing not to see more G80/2 at the track or autox venues. They are in much greater attendance at car meets, showing off the latest titanium bolts in their engine bays or carbon fiber aero pieces. And that is all good as well, everyone’s interests and hobbies are different. However, if we believe the BMW brand and the G8x platform is one of the best sporty and performance driving platforms, should we not do more than just attend shows, race on the streets, or cars&coffee events?

I am not writing this seeking answers as to why most of us are not attending performance driving events, but more about calling all of us out to do so. Instead of racing from behind the keyboard, let’s get out there and have fun on the track.

What say you?

['Cane]

TLDR

[CMW33]

My guess (particularly for G80) is that for many here, the G80 is their primary car/daily driver. Not the thing you want to wreck at the track for any reason, however rare that might be... GT4, Supra, Vette, ZLE, etc. is a 3rd/4th car for people tracking them. I'd bet a few G80 people here have a Supra, Cayman, etc. as a track car.

Also, idk, I'm not one to tell someone how to use their car. It's their money after all...

[KevinGS]

M and Porsche owners are different.

And I think it's a bit deceiving.

Yes, many/most M enthusiasts treasure their aesthetic mods more than anything else. And then a smaller percentage wants more power, but not for better track times, they want the power to stomp people on the street.

And then an even smaller percentage of M owners (especially E9X, F8X and G8X owners) track their cars...and mod their cars based on better track times.

Having said that, I don't see a lot of C7 and C8 Corvettes (or any Corvettes, for that matter) at my local AutoX and track events. I see a lot of gutted-out Japanese cars, Miatas, Porsches (mostly older, not a lot of 991 models unless I go to a pure Porsche event...and even then, it's still mostly air-cooled 911s).

So, I don't see a dramatic difference between late-model M owners and late-model Vette owners.

Any Porsche GT owner (and there's quite a bit of them, way more than track-focused M car owners) is more apt to take their car to the track. One, many of them can afford it (those cars are at a different price point). Two, it's a purpose-built, track-focused sports car. An M car is not, unless it's a rare, specialized version like an M4 CSL, F80 M4 GTS, E92 GTS and maybe an E46 CSL.

So the "explosion of Porsche GT4s and GT3s" makes sense given the overall purpose of why the car was built. I am not seeing said explosion with late-model Corvettes or even the Supra at my local track events.

[Turbodu07]

I couldn't agree more about this and there are also many other options to not race, but track it.

I've put down quite a few laps in cars and it's very safe with car clubs. Yeah, you could go balls out and crash but I just drive fast, not hard. It's not like you're racing and banging fenders. It's considered driving school. One of the cool things about these clubs is the variety of cars on the track at the same time. There could be an old Monte Carlo behind you while you chase a Lambo. That's good shit right there!

It's the only place you can really use the power of a car and those who have not done this yet....get off your ass and do it.

[yaymitch]

All of the BMWs I’ve owned over the last 5+ years have been my daily (still low mileage per year) and I’ve also tracked them. These cars are just too fast for the streets especially in urban areas. The only way I can truly enjoy the performance is to track them. I will say two things (IMO) that are causing lower track participation with the newer model BMW M’s: 1) they are more expensive and the cost to repair or replace damage is higher and 2) they are less track focused then previous generations. Although for the first one, I would argue you have way less chance of damage participating in an HPDE event vs. pushing your car on the street.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by 'Cane

TLDR

This ironically confirms what the OP said :-) The TLDR crowd, or maybe he was kidding

Track addicts are not TLDRers, devil is in the details and detailed knowledge from other experienced drivers and instructors has saved my butt at 130+ MPH in a sweeper

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

M and Porsche owners are different.


Having said that, I don't see a lot of C7 and C8 Corvettes (or any Corvettes, for that matter) at my local AutoX and track events. I see a lot of gutted-out Japanese cars, Miatas, Porsches (mostly older, not a lot of 991 models unless I go to a pure Porsche event...and even then, it's still mostly air-cooled 911s).

So, I don't see a dramatic difference between late-model M owners and late-model Vette owners.

it's a purpose-built, track-focused sports car. An M car is not, unless it's a rare, specialized version like an M4 CSL, F80 M4 GTS, E92 GTS and maybe an E46 CSL.

I am not seeing said explosion with late-model Corvettes or even the Supra at my local track events.

It sounds like it's very different at tracks in your area than it is here in CA, and especially So Cal. We have a ton of C6/C7/C8 running at HPDE, C8 is really catching on. And of course the C5 NASA Spec Corvette ppl practicing for races are fun to chase. But late model Corvettes are one of the most common high powered sportscar at our tracks, as well as SS and ZL1 Camaros.

As far as M3/M4 we still have a lot of E46, E92 and F80 M3/M4s running. The E46 is amazing in its ability to hold up after 20 years, like S2000.

That's the strangest part IMO, E46-F80 were consistently very popular at the track and the last gen M2 was ubiquitous with one of the highest % of any model out there. So far the G80 is not carrying on that M2/M3/M4 HPDE tradition, it's still early.

Other than S2000, gutted out Japanese cars are fading and I dont see many GT-Rs they were everywhere once. But late model Civic Type Rs and new Supras are very common. Also the GR 86 and GR Corolla are promising.

[Needsdecaf]

I plan on starting to autocross in my G80 with my local PCA / BMWCCA chapters.

I did not do that in either of my 911's. But my 997 Turbo S was the first car I had on "track" at our local PCA chapter's Driver training (have been on track for track day / autocross but not in my own car). And then I went and did something dumb: I drove the 'Ring. Whoops.

Now I'll need a set of wheels for track / autocross and we'll go from there.

[harperium]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I plan on starting to autocross in my G80 with my local PCA / BMWCCA chapters.

I did not do that in either of my 911's. But my 997 Turbo S was the first car I had on "track" at our local PCA chapter's Driver training (have been on track for track day / autocross but not in my own car). And then I went and did something dumb: I drove the 'Ring. Whoops.

Now I'll need a set of wheels for track / autocross and we'll go from there.

My first autocross experience was the summer of '16 in my little 320xi. I would like to try it again in my M3cx next summer. I found the hardest part of autocross was reading the cones, since the courses didn't have lines painted. The second hardest part was waiting, waiting, waiting, having to do volunteer duty chasing cones drivers would knock over.

[BryanCO]

So, you define what’s fun? Based on your post, most g8x owners don’t agree.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

It sounds like it's very different at tracks in your area than it is here in CA, and especially So Cal. We have a ton of C6/C7/C8 running at HPDE, C8 is really catching on. And of course the C5 NASA Spec Corvette ppl practicing for races are fun to chase. But late model Corvettes are one of the most common high powered sportscar at our tracks, as well as SS and ZL1 Camaros.

As far as M3/M4 we still have a lot of E46, E92 and F80 M3/M4s running. The E46 is amazing in its ability to hold up after 20 years, like S2000.

That's the strangest part IMO, E46-F80 were consistently very popular at the track and the last gen M2 was ubiquitous with one of the highest % of any model out there. So far the G80 is not carrying on that M2/M3/M4 HPDE tradition, it's still early.

Other than S2000, gutted out Japanese cars are fading and I don't see many GT-Rs they were everywhere once. But late model Civic Type Rs and new Supras are very common. Also the GR 86 and GR Corolla are promising.

Uh, yes, the Cali car scene is very different than the East Coast, because, well, Californians are very different than Southeners and the damn Yankees up in the northeast. And the Californian climate, topography, taxes, and mindset are all so different than the East Coast.

So, of course that plays out with the car culture and how we use our cars as well.

As I'm sure that the Midwestern car culture is also quite different than the Texas car culture which is different than the Canadian car culture, and so on.

Having said that, there are closed tracks and AutoX events in almost every state, so if someone wants to take their G8Xs to the limit in a safer environment, they can. My hunch is most just buy high-performance cars for mostly straight-line speed and car shows, and I ain't gonna hate on that. Different strokes for different folks.

Hec, we have a lot of low-mileage G8Xs are (just like there are a lot of low-mileage C7 and C8 Vettes), which get driven less than 100 miles/month on average (and some less than 1,000 miles per year). These cars just make appearances at local car shows, and get driven to dinner on the occasional date night with the Better Half - a restaurant that's like 10 miles away, TOPS. Obviously, these vehicles were never bought to push really hard.

For many, reading about one's prized possession & watching videos of others doing it, and then sharing how capable one's car is with other enthusiasts, that's enough. The mere idea of how impressive one's car is fulfills the fantasy for many.

[FriedPiston]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

They are in much greater attendance at car meets, showing off the latest titanium bolts in their engine bays or carbon fiber aero pieces. And that is all good as well, everyone’s interests and hobbies are different.

This.

...but also, the overall cost of track days add up. The entry fee for a straight line (1/2 mile) event starts at $250, which doesn't require much driving skill or knowledge. Meanwhile, the average DE registration is around $400 + consumables + track insurance (optional).

With the new owner demographics not having much interest in Motorsports, it's not surprising to see a low participation rate with the current M models at local race tracks.

Although, I do expect to see an increase of F8x participation at local AutoX and HPDE events over the next year due to a lower overall cost of vehicle + consumables. Most people find it easier to risk wrecking a sub $30k car over an $85-$100k+ car.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Uh, yes, the Cali car scene is very different than the East Coast, because, well, Californians are very different than Southeners and the damn Yankees up in the northeast. And the Californian climate, topography, taxes, and mindset are all so different than the East Coast.

So, of course that plays out with the car culture and how we use our cars as well.

As I'm sure that the Midwestern car culture is also quite different than the Texas car culture which is different than the Canadian car culture, and so on.

Having said that, there are closed tracks and AutoX events in almost every state, so if someone wants to take their G8Xs to the limit in a safer environment, they can. My hunch is most just buy high-performance cars for mostly straight-line speed and car shows, and I ain't gonna hate on that. Different strokes for different folks.

Hec, we have a lot of low-mileage G8Xs are (just like there are a lot of low-mileage C7 and C8 Vettes), which get driven less than 100 miles/month on average (and some less than 1,000 miles per year). These cars just make appearances at local car shows, and get driven to dinner on the occasional date night with the Better Half - a restaurant that's like 10 miles away, TOPS. Obviously, these vehicles were never bought to push really hard.

For many, reading about one's prized possession & watching videos of others doing it, and then sharing how capable one's car is with other enthusiasts, that's enough. The mere idea of how impressive one's car is fulfills the fantasy for many.

Yes, we're lucky here I have 7 tracks within a reasonable distance from me that are open year round, used to have 8. But now Buttonwillow is adding a 2nd big circuit to the original one.

I understand the idea of how "the mere idea of how impressive one's car is fulfills the fantasy for many" and that's fine as long as you keep it safe on the street. If I stopped tracking it and didn't also live 5 minutes from canyons where I can drive nice curves at a safe pace, early morning or late night, traffic and pedestrian free, I don't know if I would keep this car. I don't use excessive speed on city streets or freeway.

Every week there's another story about a fool that died or killed people driving a high end sports car 80 MPH+ on the streets in LA near me, and I guarantee 99%+ of these fools never spent a day learning to drive on the many nearby tracks available to them--but up until then they all THOUGHT they were great drivers (racers!) fully capable of handling their powerful car.

['Cane]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

This ironically confirms what the OP said :-) The TLDR crowd, or maybe he was kidding

Track addicts are not TLDRers, devil is in the details and detailed knowledge from other experienced drivers and instructors has saved my butt at 130+ MPH in a sweeper

I started to read, then I saw this wall of text and my ADD locked in and I had to stop. Now this whole thread is a wall of text. I’ll see my way out.

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by FriedPiston

This.

...the average DE registration is around $400

No, the average per day in CA where everything is too expensive is still half that. Depends on the track, but last I checked even Laguna Seca was "only" $300/day.

https://www.speedventures.com/events/

That being said, it is a very expensive hobby... track tires are the biggest cost. I've become a tire bargain hunting expert, I have 18 track tires ranging from good to great condition in my garage right now, I will be using them up in next 4 months

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by 'Cane

I started to read, then I saw this wall of text and my ADD locked in and I had to stop. Now this whole thread is a wall of text. I’ll see my way out.

Lol!

[BackOnBlack]

You all make good and valid points. When I first joined the forums, not too long ago, I noticed so many posts about what was the latest modification someone has done to their G8x to improve on some perceived shortcoming, an upgrade or a change of some sort. It was encouraging, and I thought there must be many who also go to performance driving events, since so many want to upgrade something in their vehicle. Apparently not. Is it all show, but no go?!

These events are not necessarily dangerous or any more risky than driving on the street IMO. However, mistakes can be costly for sure. The events are not cheap by any means, but then again, if you look at all of the posts in the suspension forums, engine, wheels and tires, etc. People seem to be spending tens of thousands on 'stance,' but are they not excited about paying $400 for a DE event, or $50 for an autox?

I already signed up for the next autox at the end of this month. I will have the chance to experience the handling of the car a bit. I will do at least 1 or 2 DE events next year, hopefully. My son and I are going to attend the go-kart racing event next weekend, hosted by the CCA. It sure would be hugely fun to do these events with other G8x owners; that's all.

[BackOnBlack]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

No, the average per day in CA where everything is too expensive is still half that. Depends on the track, but last I checked even Laguna Seca was "only" $300/day.

https://www.speedventures.com/events/

That being said, it is a very expensive hobby... track tires are the biggest cost. I've become a tire bargain hunting expert, I have 18 track tires ranging from good to great condition in my garage right now, I will be using them up in next 4 months

I can understand this, and for you it makes sense, I am sure. For the average owner, like me, who would attend 1-2 events a year, I cannot imagine the costs to be prohibitive though.

Tracking can become very expensive for sure, but not everyone has to commit to that level, right?

[SFVM3]

Originally Posted by BackOnBlack

I can understand this, and for you it makes sense, I am sure. For the average owner, like me, who would attend 1-2 events a year, I cannot imagine the costs to be prohibitive though.

Tracking can become very expensive for sure, but not everyone has to commit to that level, right?

Yes of course, I was trying to correct the other guy who said avg registration is $400. It's about half that at most of my tracks.

If you only go 1-2x year for 1 day each time it's very affordable. When I started I thought I might do it occasionally, using my daily driver.

Then I became a track addict, it's one of the most exciting and rewarding experiences IMO so it's worth it.

I go quite often depending on work, ski season and other things (COVID), and always do at least 2-day weekends to spread the cost of track insurance which is only a little more for 2 days vs 1 day.

[hhkb]

You’re just on a forum with like-minded people. Get off this forum and go to the track more often and your bias will change.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by SFVM3

I understand the idea of how "the mere idea of how impressive one's car is fulfills the fantasy for many" and that's fine as long as you keep it safe on the street. If I stopped tracking it and didn't also live 5 minutes from canyons where I can drive nice curves at a safe pace, early morning or late night, traffic and pedestrian-free, I don't know if I would keep this car.

SFVM,

From Crystal Lake to Lake Arrowhead to Onyx Peak to Angeles Forest Highway to the Malibu Canyons to Ojai's Maricopa Highway (Rt.33), I have driven those same canyon roads in southern California, in some engaging vehicles. Just know that you are very, very fortunate to have those kinds of roads coupled with that topography and weather pattern just 5 minutes from where you live. For car enthusiasts, that's literally a dream come true. Never take it for granted.

99% of us are not so lucky. And so I agree with you, that you need a closed course to genuinely understand the impressive performance that the BMW engineers have baked into the G8X.

I hope to be back in Southern Cal this winter (my friend lives just below Santa Barbara), and if I come, maybe we can meet up and do some canyon runs together. I always seem to be able to find a fun car on Turo to rent, and there's nothing like driving someone else's car through those canyons. The last time I was there, I gathered with some other BMW enthusiasts (even though I was in a AMG GT), and we did some run up through the canyons out of Azusa.