[thinking]

Hi everyone, I've been researching wings and am particularly interested in the Alpha-N wing for the G87. However, I haven't been able to find any statistics on the downforce and drag it provides. Multiple websites mention that it's functional, but I'm looking for specific figures.

I've been taking my G87 to the track and plan to do so more frequently starting next year. There are other companies offering wings with good downforce numbers at lower prices than Alpha-N.

Does anyone know how effective this wing is?

[ZPD]

I'm following out of curiosity in case you find something. When looking for a wing I could only find data on Verus and Adro.

[Ravenseal]

Probably not effective at all because it's RICE. Plenty of real wings you can buy if you're actually chasing downforce and track performance. You can go see the JackiePhD build on YouTube.

[evdoho]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Probably not effective at all because it's RICE. Plenty of real wings you can buy if you're actually chasing downforce and track performance. You can go see the JackiePhD build on YouTube.

I suppose the OEM wing from the E30 M3 and the E36 M3 LTW are non-functional and “rice” too, huh?

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by evdoho

I suppose the OEM wing from the E30 M3 and the E36 M3 LTW are non-functional and “rice” too, huh?

If we're talking about aggressive track use, yes.

[Basketcase]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

If we're talking about aggressive track use, yes.

That's not true at all... spoilers with aluminum (or carbon) mounts are just cheaper to make and more universal to fit different cars.

The fully molded spoilers are definitely functional (ever seen an F1 car 2022+?, or rally cars etc), whether or not the BMW MP or AlphaN ones are designed to be as aggressive as a race type spoiler, for a street car is really the question. Which I would say no, but they would definitely add downforce to the rear, just depends on how much you are looking for.

But I can guarantee the e30 M3 and e36 LTW cars were VERY functional!

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by Basketcase

That's not true at all... spoilers with aluminum (or carbon) mounts are just cheaper to make and more universal to fit different cars.

The fully molded spoilers are definitely functional (ever seen an F1 car 2022+?, or rally cars etc), whether or not the BMW MP or AlphaN ones are designed to be as aggressive as a race type spoiler, for a street car is really the question. Which I would say no, but they would definitely add downforce to the rear, just depends on how much you are looking for.

But I can guarantee the e30 M3 and e36 LTW cars were VERY functional!

Lol. I guess 30-60 pounds of downforce is less than zero, sure. It just doesn't mean anything to the performance of the car under scenarios that actually mandate a wing. These are road cars dude, just get over it.

[ZPD]

oh man- when I read Alpha-N for some reason I thought of the Akrapovic wing.

How does the Apha-N attach? Please tell me it's not double-sided tape?!

The Alpha N is in between the Verus and Adro in price. I would go with Verus if I were you.

[Basketcase]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Lol. I guess 30-60 pounds of downforce is less than zero, sure. It just doesn't mean anything to the performance of the car under scenarios that actually mandate a wing. These are road cars dude, just get over it.

I have nothing to get over... we basically agreed didn't we?

Yes the car is for the road, but if someone builds it for the track, then it become a track car no? I would say Jackie Dings car is a track car

He also didn't run an AlphaN spoiler, and neither would I...

I was more referring to the e30 and e36 LTW comment, and those were race cars first

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by Basketcase

I have nothing to get over... we basically agreed didn't we?

Yes the car is for the road, but if someone builds it for the track, then it become a track car no? I would say Jackie Dings car is a track car

He also didn't run an AlphaN spoiler, and neither would I...

I was more referring to the e30 and e36 LTW comment, and those were race cars first

Right...but the original post was asking if a cosmetic wing provides functional downforce for track use, to which my answer was, buy a functional and adjustable wing that was designed for track use, not appearance. Not sure why we're still arguing.

[Southtown]

I have an AlphaN wing coming soon. But if I was a track rat I’d get the Verus over everything else.

[thinking]

Thank you for all the comments above. I like the Ardo and Verus wings, but unfortunately, they are not for German market due to TUV regulations etc.

I absolutely love the look of the Alpha-N wing and am trying to decide if it makes sense to spend double the amount on a part that offers lower performance.

[thinking]

Originally Posted by Southtown

I have an AlphaN wing coming soon. But if I was a track rat I’d get the Verus over everything else.

Can't wait to see the pictures

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by thinking

Can't wait to see the pictures

IND should be doing the paint work this week and shipping it out Friday.

I also think the alphaN wing looks the best (I know subjective) but it gives that e30 feeling.

[thinking]

Originally Posted by Southtown

I also think the alphaN wing looks the best (I know subjective) but it gives that e30 feeling.

Absolutely!

[NewToM]

One day I will get the alpha-N wing… just putting out in the world and hoping it happens.

[aerobod]

I wouldn't expect too much from a wing the size of an Alpha-N one in terms of downforce. Most are around 0.15m^2 area. Assuming the coefficient of lift is about 1.0 for a properly wind tunnel tested one that is below it's maximum angle of attack to avoid stall, it will generate 231N (52 lb) of downforce at 50m/s (180km/h, 112mph).

As the wing is quite far back, it will create a larger moment on the rear axle than fuel in the fuel tank, but will be about equivalent to the handling and grip change on the rear tyres to running a full tank of fuel vs 1/4 of a tank, at 50m/s.

[NewToM]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I wouldn't expect too much from a wing the size of an Alpha-N one in terms of downforce. Most are around 0.15m^2 area. Assuming the coefficient of lift is about 1.0 for a properly wind tunnel tested one that is below it's maximum angle of attack to avoid stall, it will generate 231N (52 lb) of downforce at 50m/s (180km/h, 112mph).

As the wing is quite far back, it will create a larger moment on the rear axle than fuel in the fuel tank, but will be about equivalent to the handling and grip change on the rear tyres to running a full tank of fuel vs 1/4 of a tank, at 50m/s.

You can be honest, you just made all this up right? Great info!

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by NewToM

You can be honest, you just made all this up right? Great info!

Not made up, just basic aeronautical equations (my user name has something to do with that, background wise)

Lift is 0.5 x ρ x A x CoL x v^2 = 0.5 x 1.23 x 0.15 x 1.0 x 2,500 = 230.6.

ρ is no more than 1.23kg/m^3 in summer conditions, in fact today at my altitude (1250m) and temperature (30C), the air density is only 1.013kg/m^3, so I would only get 190N of downforce from the same wing.

[NewToM]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Not made up, just basic aeronautical equations (my user name has something to do with that, background wise)

Lift is 0.5 x ρ x A x CoL x v^2 = 0.5 x 1.23 x 0.15 x 1.0 x 2,500 = 230.6.

ρ is no more than 1.23kg/m^3 in summer conditions, in fact today at my altitude (1250m) and temperature (30C), the air density is only 1.013kg/m^3, so I would only get 190N of downforce from the same wing.

I was just kidding as it was so far over my head. I went with a math light profession for a reason…

[baj_baj]

Originally Posted by thinking

Thank you for all the comments above. I like the Ardo and Verus wings, but unfortunately, they are not for German market due to TUV regulations etc.

I absolutely love the look of the Alpha-N wing and am trying to decide if it makes sense to spend double the amount on a part that offers lower performance.

This might be a good alternative with TÜV
https://www.vulcan-alpha.com

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by ALPHA-N PERFORMANCE

Hello
without our Gurneys we have approx. 88kg downforce at 200 km/h. But that depends on a few other factors and can change depending on the car.
Our wing is not just for looks. We have developed / simulated the entire vehicle in CFD.

Is the active wing area larger than 0.15m^2? It looks to me about 1.0m wide with a 0.15m chord. With an efficient aerofoil section and close to the maximum stall angle of incidence, you could get a coefficient of lift of 1.5, but beyond that would be unrealistic in any normal implementation.

Was the 88kg just from a CFD simulation with a much higher coefficient of lift than would realistically be achieved with actual wind tunnel testing, as CFD simulations can be notoriously inaccurate when simulating near the limits of an aerofoils capabilities?

Also, when operating with anything other than zero yaw (with a cross wind or when turning a corner) will alter the flow characteristics over the car roof and consequently over the wing, leading to a different angle of incidence. If in a straight line with no cross wind and at an incidence that is close to stall, under yaw the wing could see a reduction in lift or a disturbed flow, but being close to stall could cause it to be pushed over the limit, hence a reason to set the angle of incidence a bit lower. Downforce in a straight line at high speeds only adds to drag of course, it only has value under cornering.