[Harper55987]

Winter is coming up and although I have a AT 135i, I decided I wanted a winter car and I've always wanted a manual. Tried to learn manual on my brothers Diesel dually and failed horribly.

Always felt like I was cheating myself saying I loved cars but I couldn't drive a manual.

Picked myself up a 6 month old, CPO VW Golf R as a practical, AWD vehicle and it only comes in 6MT. Made it though the cities, and am now adapting to trying to go from making it from A - B with a MT to knowing how to drive/ what to do.

What are your best tips for a manual car when learning?
I am struggling right now with:
rev to high on 1st gear (maybe 4k rpm)
when shifting to 2nd gear quickly, the revs don't drop fast enough so then the synchros have to slow the engine down and you get that terribly jerky shift.

What is the best way around that? Just rev a little higher when shifting in to 2nd to match the rpms?

[bjayfan]

Ignore RPM's and rev matching while you're learning.

Somewhere between popping the clutch and riding the clutch you'll learn to engage the clutch. That's the first step and you have to know where (within the travel of the clutch pedal) that the clutch does engage, soon in will become second nature and this will make sense.

In teaching my children I found it helpful to put them into different cars, cars with different clutch weight and engage points. Once they could start out smoothly and go through a couple of shifts smoothly it all clicked.

[F32]

Always, always double-clutch. And never granny shift.

Everything else is cake.

[TSM330i]

I've been driving a manual since I started driving 28 years ago.

Pulling out: The idea is to have a LITTLE clutch slip as you can. That means don't rev the car to 2000rpm or higher and ride the clutch as you pull out. This will wear the clutch prematurely. Basically, you want to let the clutch out till you feel it starting to pull. Then feed in a little throttle so you are able to pull out. TBH - if you let the clutch out slow enough, your car will pull out with NO throttle at all. The computer will keep it from stalling. Try it and see. FYI: I have a 2000 VW Golf with 218,000 miles on it and it still has the original clutch with no sign of wear.

Shifting from one gear to the next: Take your time. No need to try to shift as fast as you can. Give the engine time to lower the rpms to a level that is close to the next gear and just let the clutch out - THEN add throttle only when the clutch is fully released. If you add in throttle before the clutch is out it'll be jerky and you'll wear your clutch out prematurely. Practice this first before you start to bang gears.

Shifting quickly: Just clutch and shift as quickly as you can. Do not hit the throttle when the clutch is in - it'll only hang the revs up and make it more difficult to get the next gear. Remember, the revs will drop for the next gear. Ideally, you'd like to have them be very close to the proper rpm when you go to the next gear.

Maybe more infor than you asked for, but has helped me in the past. Also, if you ever get a chance to drive a car with a DSG go it. Pay attention to how the computer controls the clutch engagement when pulling out. It's the "perfect" match with clutch release and throttle engagement.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by F32

Always, always double-clutch. And never granny shift.

Everything else is cake.

Hasn't "double-clutching" (double-declutching) been a non-necessity for ages?

[c_ozanich]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

Hasn't "double-clutching" (double-declutching) been a non-necessity for ages?

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by F32

Always, always double-clutch. And never granny shift.

Everything else is cake.

Never double clutch, it's useless since before WW2


Do not run high RPM to start (except if you want to launch, but that's not driving manual, that's taking a race start, keep it for when you know what you are doing).

Idealy, your RPM should not move when you start.

With one foot, you give a bit of gas (very little), with the other you release the clutch. Think like you are transferring weight from one of your knees to the other. RPM should remain steady around 1k1, 1k2.

There is a point mid-travel of the clutch pedal where the car doesn't more yet, but is on the very edge. You can keep the car still with 1k rpm at that point. It is the slipping point.

Train yourself to find and stay at slipping point (not for extended period of time, it does damage the clutch disk to stay too long).

Once you are confortable with this, you can make a nice clean start:
* get to slipping point
* apply just a bit more gas gently
* release slowly but steadily the clutch pedal (about 1s total)
* you are going forward, the RPM needle should not have moved much, and you have made a clean slow and steady start
* do not leave your foot on the clutch pedal, put it on the footrest (it does damage the clutch to ride it).

To engage next gear:
* lift from the gas pedal and depress the clutch (quickly) at the same time
* engage next gear
* disengage clutch quickly (no need to slip much, except maybe going to 2nd gear, just make 2nd gear deliberate slow, but no need to care much about it)

Downshift:
* brake with right foot (always, left foot braking is better left at the track, heel-toe is advanced technique and albeit fun, totally unnecessary for street driving)
* Be sure to be under 3k rpm (if not, do not downshift, or use heel-toe, but you should be on a track course with instructor at this point)
* depress clutch
* engage lower gear
* optional: give just a bit of gas (this is where heel-toe gets useful)
* release clutch leaving it slip just a bit

Never coast with no gear engaged.

You do not want to have to play with the gearbox or clutch while inside a curve. It unsettles the car. Engage the appropriate gear for your exit speed before the turn in.

[Red Bread]

All the above advice is very good, and for the record, the rubbery Golf R shifter and vague clutch combined with the relatively low torque of the motor off boost aren't going to make your life any easier. If you have a friend with a rear while drive car and a larger engine you can swap for a few days, it would make the learning curve easier. My M Coupe was easy to start by slowly letting off of the clutch, no gas needed. It didn't make for fast get aways, but was easy to teach my wife with, and while BMW's don't have great shifters, it's still easy to tell what gear you're in, unlike the GTI's and R's I've driven which seem to have really narrow gates.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Meeni

Never coast with no gear engaged.

Just curious what your reasoning for this is? Just to have power at the ready, or something else? I do this frequently when coming to a red light and with no one around, etc.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Just curious what your reasoning for this is? Just to have power at the ready, or something else? I do this frequently when coming to a red light and with no one around, etc.

Several ones actually
* on a downhill slope, you benefit from engine braking, so you solicit less your brakes, which prevents fading, fluid boiling and potential brake failure in long mountain passes
* on a downhill slope, you actually use less gas with gear engaged giving no gas than coasting (coasting requires gas to idle, engine braking does not require gas at all).
* In a curve, no power on the wheel is very unstable. The car needs the engine to be present to be stable and handle properly.
* When stopped waiting, having a gear ready is the difference between being hopelessly rear ended and having multiple choice of evasive maneuvers at your fingertips immediately.
* The last one is not a hard "no coasting" rule, when you get to stop at a red light and the situation is clear, you can coast if you are lazy. Modern brake do not need the reinforcement of engine braking to stop you anymore. Just a matter of keeping your skills sharp by exercising them often calls for doing full down shifting pattern at most lights. It comes handy if you do need to perform some emergency braking some day.

[F1Venom]

What's the best way to slow down? I haven't driven a manual in a while but usually just downshifted while braking (5-4-3-2- and 1 only when I was below 5 MPH). I'm sure there's a better way though, right?

[JRazo85]

I am new so I cannot post, but I am an auto tech and fixing a BMW 328 Xi .. I cannot find the DTC 0x56BF .. Does anyone know what that is?

[JRazo85]

I am new so I cannot post, but I am an auto tech and fixing a BMW 328 Xi .. I cannot find the DTC 0x56BF .. Does anyone know what that is?

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

What's the best way to slow down? I haven't driven a manual in a while but usually just downshifted while braking (5-4-3-2- and 1 only when I was below 5 MPH). I'm sure there's a better way though, right?

No, this is correct, except that on most cars you do not go to 1, but stop in 2, then clutch, put 1, and wait for greenlight.

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

All the above advice is very good, and for the record, the rubbery Golf R shifter and vague clutch combined with the relatively low torque of the motor off boost aren't going to make your life any easier. If you have a friend with a rear while drive car and a larger engine you can swap for a few days, it would make the learning curve easier. My M Coupe was easy to start by slowly letting off of the clutch, no gas needed. It didn't make for fast get aways, but was easy to teach my wife with, and while BMW's don't have great shifters, it's still easy to tell what gear you're in, unlike the GTI's and R's I've driven which seem to have really narrow gates.

My Golf is a 2000 GL, which has the 2.0L 4 cylinder normally aspirated and only 120hp and 115ft lbs of tq and I can pull out with no throttle at all. The car is a total piece of cake to drive and geared very well for pulling out very easily. It just takes some getting used to.
Actually, my 2006 Corvette Z06 with 505hp and 470ft lbs, was harder to pull out than my Golf. Probably since I could do 60mph in first gear I'd suspect!

[Crimson92]

my only bit of advice.

"in a spin both feet in"

[Chihuahua]

You're trying to teach yourself a new skill. Keep practicing, and force yourself to drive that car EVERYWHERE you go. I think you'll be surprised at how fast you pick it up.

Oh, and don't worry about rev matching right now. Focus on not stalling out and keeping the car in the correct gear. And double-clutching? Dude, that's what synchronizers are for. This isn't 1934.

[Ashock]

Originally Posted by Meeni

Several ones actually
* When stopped waiting, having a gear ready is the difference between being hopelessly rear ended and having multiple choice of evasive maneuvers at your fingertips immediately.

While the concept is good for evasive maneuvers, it is not recommended to keep your clutch engaged on long stops because:

1. Keeping the clutch engaged on long stops causes premature wear on your throw-out bearings.
2. Your foot gets tired on a heavy clutch.

Replacing the throw-out bearing is as costly as replacing the clutch, because when you're replacing the throw-out bearing, you might as well replace the clutch at the same time.

[Devious21]

A lot of good advice in this thread. Just wanted to chime in on your specific questions.

Originally Posted by Harper55987

I am struggling right now with:
rev to high on 1st gear (maybe 4k rpm)

As TSM330i mentioned, you need almost no throttle to get going. Get used to starting from a stop, very slowly, using just the clutch. Once you have that down, you'll just need the slightest of gas to assist and take off. You shouldn't need to go anywhere near 4k.

Just need a lot of stop and go practice to get the feel. Don't be afraid to stall it. You need to feel it out and be aware of where the boundaries are.

The thing that helped me the most was the realization that everything's in the left foot. When I first started, I was doing most likely what you're doing now. Getting my right foot to get the revs up and simultaneously, quickly trying to get into gear without stalling. Once I figured out that NO THROTTLE is needed to get going, it really made me change how I was going bout it. Don't worry about throttle. You won't stall unless you mess up with the left foot. The left foot is all that matters. You need very little gas to keep you afloat.

Originally Posted by Harper55987

when shifting to 2nd gear quickly, the revs don't drop fast enough so then the synchros have to slow the engine down and you get that terribly jerky shift.

What is the best way around that? Just rev a little higher when shifting in to 2nd to match the rpms?

So you have to remember that in this example, your engine speed is moving faster than the road speed for the gear you're in. You need your engine speed to drop revs to match the lower road speed, so you cannot rev up to match (which would make the problem worse). You need the opposite, which is not possible. You cannot force your revs to drop faster (besides mods like a lighter flywheel).

You have to just wait it out and shift at the appropriate time. If you're sure you're shifting too early (car lunges and then brakes), then you just have to be more patient. If you're too late (sudden engine braking), you'll want to shift earlier.

I haven't been driving stick very long myself but I hope that helps. Welcome to the club

[Harper55987]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I'm not sure where double clutching came in as I thought that was gone a lonnngg time ago

Thanks to space age technology we no longer require it


I am guilty of coasting in neutral in some cases.
Example...going 25mph in town in 5th gear and coming to a stop. I don't know how I can downshift fast enough, and brake.
I always see the same discussions about engine braking vs. disc brakes and which is better or worse...


and my 1st gear up to 4k RPM's I don't mean that I engage at 4k rpms. I think my car would have fallen apart by now!! I usually engage 1st between 900 - 1100 rpm's and then sometimes stay in 1st up to 4-5k and then I want to shift to 2nd. this is where I get the jerky shift because 2nd will want to drop back down to 2k rpm's or so.

If I am patience and engage 2nd at appropriate RPM's. no problem. but when people shift quickly how do you get around this?

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by Ashock

While the concept is good for evasive maneuvers, it is not recommended to keep your clutch engaged on long stops because:

1. Keeping the clutch engaged on long stops causes premature wear on your throw-out bearings.
2. Your foot gets tired on a heavy clutch.

Replacing the throw-out bearing is as costly as replacing the clutch, because when you're replacing the throw-out bearing, you might as well replace the clutch at the same time.

True in theory, but I have done that for my entire life on multiple vehicles and never had to service a clutch on any of them, ever. And I do own them for a sizeable mileage everytime, as I do not like car payments. In more general terms, I never heard of throw-out bearing wear before coming to the US (and then witnessing that many people do not know how to operate a clutch and keep their feet on the pedal while driving, at which point it kind of made sense to me).

Fatigue is indeed an issue.

[laurenallen]

well it's not disappointing point you have lacked of confidence first of all built up your confidence than be focus on acceleration and clutch than you can drive it .