[Albator_IIII]

Originally Posted by KevinC

I expect the iMax screen to get worse. They’ll round the edges, get rid of the stilts, and make it 40% larger. Tech bros will ooh and ahh.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by frostyrwd

And bitching about it on a forum is going to change anything?

I made 2 posts about it - thats what forums are for - to share various opinions.

The discussion was not even started by me but other folks that said CS is not special enough to charge the premium for those models. I simply cited that its mostly due to M brand dilution as other brands have no issues charging insane prices and waitlists are several years long. Forget 911 GT3, go try to get a Z06 or Civic Type R for example. BMW doesn’t have any products that commands this level of desirability. The ppl running M division are asleep at the wheel for the most part or just ready to go all EV.

This might be another G80 forum where you can only talk about how amazing these new M cars are 😂

[R N M]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

BMW is a lifestyle and aspirational brand. Some people may want a performance car that is comfortable, looks good, is made from quality materials, that they enjoy driving.
Others are so obsessed with what "M" should be that they feel angry and that the brand is diluted. I mean, look at some of the posts on here. These cars are an extension of who they see themselves.

Unless you are “obsessed” with the brand or that particular model - why in the world would you pay tens of thousands over sticker or wait for years to get one.
Thats what basically these brands want for these limited edition models.

If you’re in the car hobby, rarely does one make rational decisions. Haha

[aerobod]

BMW M-Division had the all-time highest sales volume of 177K vehicles sold last year, so I’m sure they aren’t worried about how some traditionalists think they are going in the wrong direction, they are a shrinking minority of their profitable and growing business.

Porsche is now predominantly an SUV producer with only 20% of their 300K annual sales comprising 911, Cayman and Boxster together, about the same as the 4-cylinder Macan, with SUVs in total around 2/3rds of their sales. The 911, Cayman and Boxster sales volume has been pretty stagnant for 20 years, looks like only a few years now until the ICE versions of those models all disappear.

Nothing spectacular to see here in terms of non-SUV ICE sales volume from either Porsche or BMW. The market has spoken, last year the best selling “M-car” was the i4 M50.

[frostyrwd]

Originally Posted by R N M

I made 2 posts about it - thats what forums are for - to share various opinions.

Not when your comments have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation. You’re clearly an old man mad at the world. The BMW you once knew has changed and it’s probably time you just move on — she’s not thinking about you anymore.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by frostyrwd

Not when your comments have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation. You’re clearly an old man mad at the world. The BMW you once knew has changed and it’s probably time you just move on — she’s not thinking about you anymore.

Didn't realize there was a disclaimer somewhere saying comments needed to 'add value'

Just ignore and move on, what value did this comment add? If the guy is in every thread trolling it's one thing, but it's a couple posts. Chill out frosty

[R N M]

Originally Posted by frostyrwd

Not when your comments have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation. You’re clearly an old man mad at the world. The BMW you once knew has changed and it’s probably time you just move on — she’s not thinking about you anymore.

Not that old but have had bunch of cars including BMWs and just giving my observations of the brand. So criticizing a brand that I own and like is being mad at the world - this is basically the go to accusation for young ppl like you who have nothing of substance to say. 😂

Btw i currently have X3 m40i and F80 M3 and looking to get M2cs.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by aerobod

BMW M-Division had the all-time highest sales volume of 177K vehicles sold last year, so I’m sure they aren’t worried about how some traditionalists think they are going in the wrong direction, they are a shrinking minority of their profitable and growing business.

Porsche is now predominantly an SUV producer with only 20% of their 300K annual sales comprising 911, Cayman and Boxster together, about the same as the 4-cylinder Macan, with SUVs in total around 2/3rds of their sales. The 911, Cayman and Boxster sales volume has been pretty stagnant for 20 years, looks like only a few years now until the ICE versions of those models all disappear.

Nothing spectacular to see here in terms of non-SUV ICE sales volume from either Porsche or BMW. The market has spoken, last year the best selling “M-car” was the i4 M50.

That includes all the Mperformance versions though which never existed before. basically now every model has an M whether Msport or Mperformance.

Its great for short term sales / profits but like i said before hurts the M brand when you are trying to charge hefty premium on the CS models.

I feel BMW could have done a better job without diluting the M brand so much. Now they just came out to say all M cars will be called M Competition. Its just too much imo.

As far as Porsche - their 911 / Cayman/Boxster sales have increased as has demand but they are at capacity in the factory. There is no inventory at all for these cars.
I agree they SUVs diluted the brand for sure but Porsche has done excellent job of retaining the specialness of their sports cars by making them better than ever and obviously the GT cars create the Halo effect for them.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by R N M

That includes all the Mperformance versions though which never existed before. basically now every model has an M whether Msport or Mperformance.

Its great for short term sales / profits but like i said before hurts the M brand when you are trying to charge hefty premium on the CS models.

I feel BMW could have done a better job without diluting the M brand so much. Now they just came out to say all M cars will be called M Competition. Its just too much imo.

Times change, some people don't like change, but a stagnant business is a dead business. The M brand is what BMW wants it to be and their sales results show that they have been doing something right. The majority of their customers don't care about the brand from a technical point of view, only what does the product give to them at what price. Without those customers, none of the M-cars would likely exist now due to low volumes on a custom platform not being viable at the current price point.

This is borne out by the fact all M-cars are on the same CLAR plafform which is also shared with all ICE RWD vehicles, this sets the core dimensions, features and weight to a significant degree. If they had custom platforms, they would not exist, as the price would be considerably higher at lower volumes, turning away the majority of buyers, leading to a loss-making product. The same goes for the common tech such as iDrive, software driven features, etc. Common platforms reduce the cost considerably.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by R N M

As far as Porsche - their 911 / Cayman/Boxster sales have increased as has demand but they are at capacity in the factory. There is no inventory at all for these cars.
I agree they SUVs diluted the brand for sure but Porsche has done excellent job of retaining the specialness of their sports cars by making them better than ever and obviously the GT cars create the Halo effect for them.

The thing is, 911/Cayman/Boxster sales haven't changed significantly in numbers over the past 20 years or so: https://www.stuttcars.com/porsche-sa...ction-numbers/. They are still likely not fully through the waiting list caused by the supply chain issues. In 2020 before the supply chain issues kicked in, new 911s could be had with up to 25% discount: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1198...019-911-a.html

[VIERsr]

The fact is that without the Cayenne and the Macan diesel, Porsche would no longer exist and we wouldn't have the 911 for quite a while, if you want something truly exclusive and driven by passion and not profits buy a Pagani.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The thing is, 911/Cayman/Boxster sales haven't changed significantly in numbers over the past 20 years or so: https://www.stuttcars.com/porsche-sa...ction-numbers/. They are still likely not fully through the waiting list caused by the supply chain issues. In 2020 before the supply chain issues kicked in, new 911s could be had with up to 25% discount: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1198...019-911-a.html

That post was from June 2020 on a left over 2019MY 911 when 2021MY cars were about to hit dealers plus there were fire sales on everything as all the Covid shutdowns started.
25% discounts were never the norm lol
5-10% definitely prior to Covid
Now Msrp is considered like a win

There are factory constraints which is why they can’t significantly increase 911 production and I also think they are artificially keeping sales lower to create scarcity effect a la Rolex.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by R N M

That post was from June 2020 on a left over 2019MY 911 when 2021MY cars were about to hit dealers plus there were fire sales on everything as all the Covid shutdowns started.
25% discounts were never the norm lol
5-10% definitely prior to Covid
Now Msrp is considered like a win

There are factory constraints which is why they can’t significantly increase 911 production and I also think they are artificially keeping sales lower to create scarcity effect a la Rolex.

Basically similar to some of the shortages and ADMs seen with some BMW models then. Seems BMW does currently have better control of their supply chain and production capacity, though, compared with the VAG group.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

The fact is that without the Cayenne and the Macan diesel, Porsche would no longer exist and we wouldn't have the 911 for quite a while, if you want something truly exclusive and driven by passion and not profits buy a Pagani.

Agreed but thats the magic balance Porsche has struck.
They can peddle tens of thousands of Macans to soccer moms while charging $300k for a limited GT car that will fetch over $500k in open market.
They have mainstream models but yet retained exclusivity that few can match.

My whole point was that BMW M division could have done a better job with balancing of growing volume but also not diluting the brand where its no longer exclusive enough for ppl to pay that premium for those special CS / CSL models. Definitely not easy.

[R N M]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Basically similar to some of the shortages and ADMs seen with some BMW models then. Seems BMW does currently have better control of their supply chain and production capacity, though, compared with the VAG group.

I don’t think BMW has anything comparable to what goes on with Porsche GT and Turbo cars. This has been going on way before Covid also.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by R N M

Agreed but thats the magic balance Porsche has struck.
They can peddle tens of thousands of Macans to soccer moms while charging $300k for a limited GT car that will fetch over $500k in open market.
They have mainstream models but yet retained exclusivity that few can match.

My whole point was that BMW M division could have done a better job with balancing of growing volume but also not diluting the brand where its no longer exclusive enough for ppl to pay that premium for those special CS / CSL models. Definitely not easy.

BMW is making more money from the M Division than they have ever before. They have shown they have a successful product that is profitable and meeting customer demand. The exclusive models are so limited in production numbers that they are a rounding error on the bottom line, so it doesn’t seem like a significant problem if they don’t exist at all, as virtually all buyers don’t know the difference from a base M anyway.

If the press likes the core M models (which they seem to at the moment), then the average buyer will just look at the price and the M badge, the comfort features and whether it goes faster than the neighbours car, before making their decision to buy. Enthusiasts buying limited models don’t bring in much revenue, so the halo cars are more of a charity exercise than anything.

If production volume is rising along with revenue and profit, then they would be negligent to restrain production capacity from a shareholder perspective.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by R N M

I don’t think BMW has anything comparable to what goes on with Porsche GT and Turbo cars. This has been going on way before Covid also.

Why would they need to? They are in a different market segment. The GT3 is double the price of the core M models, most are also optioned up a lot, so typically not leaving the dealer for less than US$200K in limited numbers, the Turbo S has just become the soft version of the GT3. They are more competing with the Artura and Huracan than any BMW model these days.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by R N M

Agreed but thats the magic balance Porsche has struck.
They can peddle tens of thousands of Macans to soccer moms while charging $300k for a limited GT car that will fetch over $500k in open market.
They have mainstream models but yet retained exclusivity that few can match.

My whole point was that BMW M division could have done a better job with balancing of growing volume but also not diluting the brand where its no longer exclusive enough for ppl to pay that premium for those special CS / CSL models. Definitely not easy.

I'm of the opinion that Porsche could sell a stroller for 100k and people would fight to get it, but that's because of the brand's status built up over 60 years of history (certainly not because of the Macan, obviously). In fact, its prestige is so great that not even 'impure' cars like the Macan can dent it.
Bmw doesn't have - and never has had - this kind of reputation, as excellent as BMW M's are or have been, they are still 'pumped up' versions of normal mass produced cars, nothing to do with cars born to be sporty.
Sorry to say, but an M3 is nothing more than a tuned 320i, even a CSL/GTS, a base 718 is a car with a more exclusive perception.
Bmw cannot chase and catch up with Porsche with tuned family sedans, it should build a dedicated sports car, like Audi did with the R8 and MB did with the SLS/AMG GT, the best Bmw has done in recent years is the i8, and there is no need for further comment.
I believe that Bmw M's target audience is not Porsche, but Audi S/RS and MB AMG, hence the M xDrive, the M Performance line-up and 'blasphemous' cars like the 4-cylinder M135i on a FWD platform, if it wanted to compete with Porsche (assuming it could) it would produce different cars. And I mean true dedicated sport cars, not 'less diluted' M cars.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by R N M

I made 2 posts about it - thats what forums are for - to share various opinions.

The discussion was not even started by me but other folks that said CS is not special enough to charge the premium for those models. I simply cited that its mostly due to M brand dilution as other brands have no issues charging insane prices and waitlists are several years long. Forget 911 GT3, go try to get a Z06 or Civic Type R for example. BMW doesn’t have any products that commands this level of desirability. The ppl running M division are asleep at the wheel for the most part or just ready to go all EV.

This might be another G80 forum where you can only talk about how amazing these new M cars are 😂

There is a difference between "responding" and "reacting".

When coming up with Tesla, Elon Musk responded to a void in the market.

By going full frontal EV, BMW reacted to Tesla's success.

Chinese manufacturers have captured 60% of global EV sales and in excess of 70% of battery production and sales (although most of the sales are within China). Tesla sells more cars in China than probably the rest of the world. BMW sees that and, for better or for worse, is reacting accordingly.

The wider grilles, the long-wheel-based 3-series which is made only for China, and the use of ///M on just about everything BMW makes, is their answer to demand from China, not to the rest of the world.

It appears, to me at least, BMW is no longer focused on its "tribal" customer base these days, but rather on those with the greatest economic say.

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

The fact is that without the Cayenne and the Macan diesel, Porsche would no longer exist and we wouldn't have the 911 for quite a while, if you want something truly exclusive and driven by passion and not profits buy a Pagani.

Oh c'mon

Pagani!?

koenigsegg jesko absolut; please 🥰

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by MadBimmeRad

Oh c'mon

Pagani!?

koenigsegg jesko absolut; please 🥰

Personally, I am not a fan of Koenigseggs, but I agree