[MaxVO2]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Imagine you died in the mid 2000s and came back to life to the world we have now. Talk about a disappointment.

***You mean because we don't have flying cars yet? I was kinda expecting that by now myself....

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Then why wouldn't I buy a Supra?

It makes no sense.

So you can't have two fast fun cars in the lineup?! You may not be a car person

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by gblansten

I’m betting 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 1/4 mile in 13.7.

That's not much better than my Miata for 0-60. Don't even bother, Toyota.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

That's not much better than my Miata for 0-60. Don't even bother, Toyota.

Yeah but Miata owners eat corn the long way like Goldberg.

Old wrestling jokes aside I don't think a mid 5s car is gonna be that bad, especially if they can hit an affordable price point.

Personally, I'm a bit over that everything is crazy fast now, and would rather drive something that's engaging and a blast to drive than another sub 4 second to 60 video game car.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

That's not much better than my Miata for 0-60. Don't even bother, Toyota.

Agree

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Hopefully a 4200 pound hybrid.

Yikes!

I'll keep my 3,000-pound Z4 Coupe, thanks.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Looks like a mildly photoshoped Supra (2024 sales of 2,615 units) or GR86 (2024 sales of 11,426 units).

Sadly, the sales of both have been underwhelming. Hard to imagene Celica selling much better than GR86.
All 2024 Sports Car Sales Droped 14%.





New shared platform with MR2, and possibly Subaru.
Coming in 2026, or so they say.

Sales are down because all prices and interest rates are up. Gone are the days a guy could buy a new car if he had a decent job out of highschool.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Sales are down because all prices and interest rates are up.

Automakers whose sales are down are often citing this excuse.
However, overall US auto sales were up 2.2% in 2024 to 15.9M, despite higher interest rates.

Sadly, sports-cars segment has been in a multi-decades long decline.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Gone are the days a guy could buy a new car if he had a decent job out of highschool.

I'm not sure that was EVER the reality, at least not in my lifetime.
Your first car out of College (never mind HS) was likely a used one, or a cheapo new one.

Overall, new car prices have been trending up above inflation level for a few decaders. In 2024, they came down a bit from 2022 (peak) levels, despite resilient and strong economy in those years.

Going forward, the new taxes and tarriffs will likely accelerate inflation and new car prices:


https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/

a

[MaxVO2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Sales are down because all prices and interest rates are up. Gone are the days a guy could buy a new car if he had a decent job out of highschool.

****Guys out of high school with a decent job can still buy a new car now. All depends on what other expenses they may have, and what kind of car. It is generally not a great idea to do this as buying a home is probably a LOT more important than having a nice car - especially for long term financial security, tax shelter, a real asset, etc..

If they still live at home with their parents - plenty of guys with no college but some kind of job are driving around in new or almost new cars - some are quite nice. Once someone has rent, perhaps a kid and a baby momma or two - the nice car is generally *gone* as they have other significant needs being demanded of their income.

My parents didn't buy their first home until they were almost 40 back in the day - that was NOT uncommon as interest rates were *much* higher back then and wages were stagnant (late 70's).

The "good old days" realistically weren't all that good for many many people. There have always been modest income people, poor people, etc.. and car prices reflect their target audience.

There are still new car payments at under $300 a month financed out for basically ever, and NO it's not a BMW 8 series, but it is a new car. A person of modest means without too many other expenses can generally swing $300 a month for a payment. Insurance, gas, etc.. adds into that of course but it is doable for many.

Used, one can do better of course and get more car, but not brand new.

All depends on priorities. Calculate out inflation and average income - go back to the 60's, 70's, 80's etc.. and buying power is not that much different than now. Cars are a LOT nicer now in general with features that were science fiction back in the 1960's.

Automotive sales are up, not down overall.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Automakers whose sales are down are often citing this excuse.
However, overall US auto sales were up 2.2% in 2024 to 15.9M, despite higher interest rates.

Sadly, sports-cars segment has been in a multi-decades long decline.



I'm not sure that was EVER the reality, at least not in my lifetime.
Your first car out College was likely a used one, or a cheapo new one.

Overall, new car prices have been trending up above inflation level for a few decaders. In 2024, they came down a bit from 2022 (peak) levels, despite resilient and strong economy in those years.

Going forward, the new taxes and tarriffs will likely accelerate inflation and new car prices:


https://www.financialsamurai.com/average-new-car-price/

a

Headline:US new car sales rose to five-year high in 2024, helped by hybrids

Here is the issue - that is partially driven by the tax incentive given by the government to basically slash $3500 off the price of a car.

The other part of it is mentioned by the other poster:

There are still new car payments at under $300 a month financed out for basically ever

Sounds like cars are unaffordable if you need to extend the finance window. I knew people with new cars in high school, and while they weren't fancy - they were at least "affordable" on a basic income. That's not the case now.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Headline:US new car sales rose to five-year high in 2024, helped by hybrids

Here is the issue - that is partially driven by the tax incentive given by the government to basically slash $3500 off the price of a car.

Sure: ICE, hybrids, and EVs - all add up to total sales.
Hybrid and EV sales have been growing and double-diget percent rate for many years, accounting for the bulk of (if not all of) new car sales growth.

There are definite benefits to EV and hybrid drivetrains that appeal to many.
Defintely not everyone and not for all use-cases, but a large-enough market share to drive the growth for the overall auto industry.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Sounds like cars are unaffordable if you need to extend the finance window.

Could be.
Could also be that folks are (over-?)stretching their budget for higher-end vehicles than they otherwise would be buying. I would not recommend it, but it's out there.
Could also be that just because a few do 72+ month car loans, the extreme cases don't represent the overall population of folks' financing practices.

There are also plenty of lease options at under $300/month (especially if you include EVs), which is exatly what I leased my E90 335ix for about 20 years ago.
Overall - that is very cheap, net of inflation.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I knew people with new cars in high school, and while they weren't fancy - they were at least "affordable" on a basic income.

My kids also have tons of friends with new cars in HS.
Their parents paid for all of them.

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

That's not the case now.

Well, someone must be buying all those new cars.
So it can't be that bad, right!?

What would be interseting to track is the median (average is skewed by super-cars) new car price vs. median family income level, by age bracket. That, coupled with an assumption of how much income should be dedicated to car payments (e.g.: <20% for cars, <40% for housing, etc.) would tell us what segment of the population is likely buying new cars.

I don't know where to pull the data at that level of granularity.

Average new car price was $48,759 in 2024.
Median US hopusehold income was $80.6K in 2023 (varies by race), but this obfuscates age disparity and the shape of the income distrubtion curve.

There are ~127M US households.
There were 15.9 vehicles sold in the US in 2024.

So on that basis, 12.5% of the US households choose to buy or lease at least one new car last year (myself included).

Seams reasonable, and reasonably affordable.

a

[BlkGS]

The new car market is following the buyers, who are increasingly higher income. Where you used to have an entry level new car buyer, now you are seeing more and more of those people pushed into used cars.

[Ricochet48]

Absolutely zero chance there's a new, fun Celica. Look what they did to my RSX haha, it's going to be an EV SUV. The Prelude is basically going to be a less practical Prius coupe too.

There's not really a market for coupes aside from sports cars. The 2 and 4 series are basically the last reasonable AWD coupes with a usable backseat (aside from the overpriced the Benz CLE). The Supra sold like 2,500 units last year. The Z has also been a failure (built no a super old platform).

The twins and Miata are still budget staples, but the market it not big enough for a new Celica in my opinion. I wish it was, but nearly all my friends are buying RAV4 Hybrids and such, they think I'm insane for wanting a coupe much less a sedan.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by MaxVO2

****Guys out of high school with a decent job can still buy a new car now. All depends on what other expenses they may have, and what kind of car. It is generally not a great idea to do this as buying a home is probably a LOT more important than having a nice car - especially for long term financial security, tax shelter, a real asset, etc..

If they still live at home with their parents - plenty of guys with no college but some kind of job are driving around in new or almost new cars - some are quite nice. Once someone has rent, perhaps a kid and a baby momma or two - the nice car is generally *gone* as they have other significant needs being demanded of their income.

My parents didn't buy their first home until they were almost 40 back in the day - that was NOT uncommon as interest rates were *much* higher back then and wages were stagnant (late 70's).

The "good old days" realistically weren't all that good for many many people. There have always been modest income people, poor people, etc.. and car prices reflect their target audience.

There are still new car payments at under $300 a month financed out for basically ever, and NO it's not a BMW 8 series, but it is a new car. A person of modest means without too many other expenses can generally swing $300 a month for a payment. Insurance, gas, etc.. adds into that of course but it is doable for many.

Used, one can do better of course and get more car, but not brand new.

All depends on priorities. Calculate out inflation and average income - go back to the 60's, 70's, 80's etc.. and buying power is not that much different than now. Cars are a LOT nicer now in general with features that were science fiction back in the 1960's.

Automotive sales are up, not down overall.

Rates were much higher then, but the cost of homes was realistic. The complete opposite of today. A home worth, realistically, $250k or so will cost you around $500k now PLUS the rates PLUS wages not even close to keeping up with inflation PLUS the corporations buying up so many of the homes to sell at an ever dumber price = the "American Dream" is DEAD

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Rates were much higher then, but the cost of homes was realistic. The complete opposite of today. A home worth, realistically, $250k or so will cost you around $500k now PLUS the rates PLUS wages not even close to keeping up with inflation PLUS the corporations buying up so many of the homes to sell at an ever dumber price = the "American Dream" is DEAD

States have to get their taxes from somewhere...