[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by ///MoT

They've been sent!


-Tom

Thank you so much - I've got a way better sounding setup now. I've also got a whole heckuva lot more knowledge navigating the DSP.

I actually didn't use any of the profiles, but I studied them (mainly routing) and then ran my own mic'd T/A.
T/A and all the routing is perfect now, behaving as it should. Got about 2 solid hours in the car tonight.

RTA is next.

Originally Posted by AdonisP91

I posted the BT Sound Profile routing on page 5 of this thread. What isn’t included is their EQ filters and time alignment, but I wouldn’t trust them anyway.

You sure did, and thanks. I think I needed to break everything and walk through it all before your screenshots made sense. I also didn't have the Virtual Routing enabled, lol.

My BT underseat subs should get here tomorrow. I’ll report any differences I hear.

[whatthehuck]

Originally Posted by ///MoT

I can say after more testing/dinking around today, that as weird as the I/O settings that BT chose for their profiles look, they are actually correct. Ex., for the rear surrounds, they have Front Center Full—>Surround Left, and Rear Fill Full—>Surround Right (didn't include the Virtual Channel Info here), because the "proper" Surround L Full and Surround R Full channels in the "Basic" sound file from ATF was NOT correct, per my testing.

It's hard enough trying to learn how all this shit works, without having crap "default" examples/settings directly from the manufacturer (looking at YOU, Audiotec Fischer).


-Tom

It's funny cause I just emailed you about this. I can echo others' sentiments of frustration setting in. I've been having nothing but issues, even before the actual sound design aspect. Still having a problem where the only way I can get my laptop to recognize the amp being plugged in is with the stock short cable that came with the amp. I've tried 7 different cables now and none of them work. One of them TRIED to work, it connected and then gave me a message saying the ACO was out of date and needed to be updated from 0 to 19. I said go for it, it tried to update and then gave an error code, then that cable won't connect anymore.

Going to my device manager it sees that the Match 10 is in there, but it says the device can't start.

Anyway, this means that I have to try to use the software with the laptop sitting on the center console halfway in the backseat, and me trying to use the laptop I'm sitting all twisted around. Pain in the dick.

Next I've made some small changes to Tom's sound profile and it sounds great considering it's only playing the front L/R and the subs. The center channel is (quietly) playing out of the far back rear driver speaker. The rear R and the mid/fill/surround (whatever you wanna call them) speakers don't play anything.

A few days ago all speakers were working and I time aligned everything as best I could, then tried to use the RTA function and it kept EQ'ing everything pretty pasted then saying it couldn't reach the requested values, so I quit trying that and just did it by ear for the time being.

Every change I make introduces another problem and I just have learned the software enough to be fluent with it to fix the issues. All of that combined with the fact that I'm fuckin up my back twisting around to do all this is pretty damn aggravating.

On my next day off I'm gonna try to get a hold of someone at ATF tech support to see if I can't figure out the connection issues so I can use a damn cable to that reaches to front of the car.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by whatthehuck

It's funny cause I just emailed you about this. I can echo others' sentiments of frustration setting in. I've been having nothing but issues, even before the actual sound design aspect. Still having a problem where the only way I can get my laptop to recognize the amp being plugged in is with the stock short cable that came with the amp. I've tried 7 different cables now and none of them work. One of them TRIED to work, it connected and then gave me a message saying the ACO was out of date and needed to be updated from 0 to 19. I said go for it, it tried to update and then gave an error code, then that cable won't connect anymore.

Going to my device manager it sees that the Match 10 is in there, but it says the device can't start.

Anyway, this means that I have to try to use the software with the laptop sitting on the center console halfway in the backseat, and me trying to use the laptop I'm sitting all twisted around. Pain in the dick.

Too bad the connectivity isn't wifi like some of the other modern devices that are out these days. Like the CanDo controller - it broadcasts a wifi signal which you connect to and the interface software is all browser based. Granted, that's a lot simpler than this.

Originally Posted by whatthehuck

Next I've made some small changes to Tom's sound profile and it sounds great considering it's only playing the front L/R and the subs. The center channel is (quietly) playing out of the far back rear driver speaker. The rear R and the mid/fill/surround (whatever you wanna call them) speakers don't play anything.

Are you going for an "audiophile" setup for the driver which would probably only consist of the front left/right tweeters, mids, and subs? (I admit I'm sort of assuming that's the "audiophile" setup based on what was done years ago before center channels became a thing. I don't know if the winning sound quality competition vehicles these days utilize a center channel.)

EDIT: Did a little research into the winning vehicles in the sound quality competitions in IASCA. The lower classes are judged only from the driver's seat, so folks set up their systems with perfect time alignment for the driver and I don't think they normally use a center channel. The Expert and Ultimate classes are judged from both front seats. So imaging and staging has to be managed for both front seats, a much greater challenge. For this, it seems the guys are employing center channels and I have no idea what a time alignment tune would look like for that goal.

Personally, I don't care about the passenger. I just want a perfect center image for me and a nice wide sound stage. So I'll be time aligning and EQing for the driver's head position for my car, when I get my DSP. Also I don't know if I will be utilizing any rear speakers at all.

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Personally, I don't care about the passenger. I just want a perfect center image for me and a nice wide sound stage. So I'll be time aligning and EQing for the driver's head position for my car, when I get my DSP. Also I don't know if I will be utilizing any rear speakers at all.

Exactly. I’m not running a center, rears or rear surrounds. Car sound 50x better that way. T/A is dialed and it sounds good. Currently manually EQ’d as well.

RTA will be fun to get into. While finding the house curve baseline is absolutely necessary to fix all the issues, I cannot generally listen to that curve as I don’t enjoy how flat and typically harsh it is.

Is there a global EQ inside the DSP that can sit on top of the RTA’d profile? That’s the one to dial to taste, not the headunit’s EQ, obviously.

And yeah, a bit of a learning curve

[whatthehuck]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Personally, I don't care about the passenger. I just want a perfect center image for me and a nice wide sound stage. So I'll be time aligning and EQing for the driver's head position for my car, when I get my DSP. Also I don't know if I will be utilizing any rear speakers at all.

I admit I like the music surrounding me, I like using all the speakers. I'm one of the guys that turns the surround sound effect all the way up when making changes to the EQ. If it were possible I'd personally prefer the voice from the center channel and then everything else for music fill. As it sits right now the music sounds slightly... Off somehow, not sure how to describe it. It irks me that I've got 11 speakers and I can only use half of them, seems like a waste to me but I get the idea of a good sound stage. Sometimes it just seems kind of mono, I don't know if that's the EQ setup I'm using or it's because my rear speakers aren't working (except of course the one rear speaker that plays the center channel &#129320

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

Too bad the connectivity isn't wifi like some of the other modern devices that are out these days. Like the CanDo controller - it broadcasts a wifi signal which you connect to and the interface software is all browser based. Granted, that's a lot simpler than this.

ATF do make a wifi control module that you can add on to the Match UP10 DSP. It would work with the AlphaOne since they don’t have the MEC Analog IN, as they ditched the Center channel signal. If one uses the MEC Analog IN as ATF recommends then you can’t add the Wifi module, it is either or. Also though I know you can control stuff like presets with the wifi module I don’t know if you tune the DSP without the USB port. One would have to test it or email ATF to ask.

Are you going for an "audiophile" setup for the driver which would probably only consist of the front left/right tweeters, mids, and subs? (I admit I'm sort of assuming that's the "audiophile" setup based on what was done years ago before center channels became a thing. I don't know if the winning sound quality competition vehicles these days utilize a center channel.)

EDIT: Did a little research into the winning vehicles in the sound quality competitions in IASCA. The lower classes are judged only from the driver's seat, so folks set up their systems with perfect time alignment for the driver and I don't think they normally use a center channel. The Expert and Ultimate classes are judged from both front seats. So imaging and staging has to be managed for both front seats, a much greater challenge. For this, it seems the guys are employing center channels and I have no idea what a time alignment tune would look like for that goal.

Personally, I don't care about the passenger. I just want a perfect center image for me and a nice wide sound stage. So I'll be time aligning and EQing for the driver's head position for my car, when I get my DSP. Also I don't know if I will be utilizing any rear speakers at all.

Super fascinating. I spent the last month reading, watching videos, and tinkering with the ATF software and tuning my home sound system. Right when I finally think I have a handle on it all, you now tell me I only tickled the surface and there are 2 classes above to learn how to tune for multiple seats locations…

This game might be a never ending rabbit hole!

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Exactly. I’m not running a center, rears or rear surrounds. Car sound 50x better that way. T/A is dialed and it sounds good. Currently manually EQ’d as well.

RTA will be fun to get into. While finding the house curve baseline is absolutely necessary to fix all the issues, I cannot generally listen to that curve as I don’t enjoy how flat and typically harsh it is.

Is there a global EQ inside the DSP that can sit on top of the RTA’d profile? That’s the one to dial to taste, not the headunit’s EQ, obviously.

And yeah, a bit of a learning curve

Yes you can import any target house curve you like and the RTA EQ part of the app will tune it to your custom curve. You can use Jazzy Companion to design your ideal house curve.

https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threa...n-2024.469329/

You also have 10 memory presets so you can have a bunch of different curves and tunes.

[BMW DIY Guy]

I am hoping that once this Uber file comes out, we have one tuned for both front seats? I am solo most of the time but dont want to cut my music loving wife out.

[BroDoze]

Time Alignment is a non-negotiable for me. Home or car. Driver wins all day every day. Whether I’m in the drivers seat or couch potato’ing in the Captain’s seat. Wife understood this a long time ago.

Why make 2 suffer mediocrity when one can listen to perfection. This isn’t about fairness.

It helps she’s got much less of a discerning ear than I do. Music to her is mostly about the emotion, less about the audio quality. She does appreciate a good system, but I’m still not sure she can identify proper time alignment. Whereas it’s nails on a chalkboard for me if I don’t have it.

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy

I am hoping that once this Uber file comes out, we have one tuned for both front seats? I am solo most of the time but dont want to cut my music loving wife out.

That’s my plan. I talked to a local audio shop and he’s going to order me the Match UP 10 DSP and all the parts for a really good price. I should get it before or about same time as my car. I’ll do a DIY install, making my own mounting bracket and running an optical cable to inside the armrest console so that I can play lossless music via the optical in (while still connected to Apple CarPlay). I’ll also install the ATF Conductor to swap between presets for blind A/B testing.

I’ll then create a bunch of tunes. 1 for driver, 1 passenger, then try tune to both seats. I’ll tune with and without the Dynamic Loudness that is built in to the HK system. And of course I’ll be taking tons of REW measurements for objective analysis.

[BroDoze]

Originally Posted by AdonisP91

That’s my plan. I talked to a local audio shop and he’s going to order me the Match UP 10 DSP and all the parts for a really good price. I should get it before or about same time as my car. I’ll do a DIY install, making my own mounting bracket and running an optical cable to inside the armrest console so that I can play lossless music via the optical in (while still connected to Apple CarPlay). I’ll also install the ATF Conductor to swap between presets for blind A/B testing.

I’ll then create a bunch of tunes. 1 for driver, 1 passenger, then try tune to both seats. I’ll tune with and without the Dynamic Loudness that is built in to the HK system. And of course I’ll be taking tons of REW measurements for objective analysis.

Cool.

Has anybody been able to successfully phase align yet? I have not tried yet. Was just getting routing and TA set. I honestly probably need to do that before attempting to EQ.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Time Alignment is a non-negotiable for me. Home or car. Driver wins all day every day. Whether I’m in the drivers seat or couch potato’ing in the Captain’s seat. Wife understood this a long time ago.

Why make 2 suffer mediocrity when one can listen to perfection. This isn’t about fairness.

It helps she’s got much less of a discerning ear than I do. Music to her is mostly about the emotion, less about the audio quality. She does appreciate a good system, but I’m still not sure she can identify proper time alignment. Whereas it’s nails on a chalkboard for me if I don’t have it.

I couldn't be more with you on this.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by BMW DIY Guy

I am hoping that once this Uber file comes out, we have one tuned for both front seats? I am solo most of the time but dont want to cut my music loving wife out.

BMW DIY Guy Are you talking in terms of time alignment (goal: imaging and staging performance) or just overall sound quality?

For time alignment, I'm not sure what the targets would be if one were to time align for both front passengers. Would one place the mic between the two front seating positions and run the time alignment algorithms from there? Maybe AdonisP91 has a thought on this.

If you're not concerned with imaging and staging for your wife, but just want her to experience great tonal quality, well that's a lot easier. The car is symmetric. So if we tune for good tonal quality from the driver's seat we usually get pretty close for the passenger seat (my experience using an RTA back around 1995, lol!) and can tweak the passenger experience from there until we have a good tonal balance for both front seats.

To get everything (imaging, staging, and tonal quality) from both front seats is the ultimate challenge and that's where the center channel is crucial. Supposedly the Match Up 10DSP has a pretty sophisticated center channel processor, so that's a plus.

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by kenkamm

BMW DIY Guy Are you talking in terms of time alignment (goal: imaging and staging performance) or just overall sound quality?

For time alignment, I'm not sure what the targets would be if one were to time align for both front passengers. Would one place the mic between the two front seating positions and run the time alignment algorithms from there? Maybe AdonisP91 has a thought on this.

If you're not concerned with imaging and staging for your wife, but just want her to experience great tonal quality, well that's a lot easier. The car is symmetric. So if we tune for good tonal quality from the driver's seat we usually get pretty close for the passenger seat (my experience using an RTA back around 1995, lol!) and can tweak the passenger experience from there until we have a good tonal balance for both front seats.

To get everything (imaging, staging, and tonal quality) from both front seats is the ultimate challenge and that's where the center channel is crucial. Supposedly the Match Up 10DSP has a pretty sophisticated center channel processor, so that's a plus.

I don’t know for a car environment how it is done in competitions, I have to look into it. I can only assume it is similar to a Home Theatre setup. There the procedure is usually to start by taking a reference measurement in the Main Listening Position (MLP). You then proceed to take several measurements around the MLP area as well as multiple measurements in the other nearby seating locations. The more seating positions the more measurements needed. If we look at Audyssey MultEQ-X or Dirac Live, they typically require a minimum of 9 measurements. But 12-15 is not uncommon, and that is per speaker for each position. So they add up fast.

From there those softwares run special algorithms. For us we would need to use REW and do a more elaborate alignment then I outlined above in the thread. We would need to cross-vector align the multiple listening positions to find the best match.

But at the end of the day there is no cheating physics. The smaller your listening bubble, say around 1 head, the more precise you can dial in the sound. But sure one can make a listening bubble to cover both driver and passenger.

But once again, if we want a tight sound bubble, we will need a preset for husband driver wife passenger and a different present for wife driver and husband passenger. Unless both wife and husband are exact same height, the bubble will be different and titled depending on who is driving. The only way around this I can think of is if we enlarge it to cover all seating arrangements, but then why bother time aligning at all at that point, the bubble is getting too loose.

Hopefully this makes sense and isn’t too wordy.

[kenkamm]

Originally Posted by AdonisP91

I don’t know for a car environment how it is done in competitions, I have to look into it. I can only assume it is similar to a Home Theatre setup. There the procedure is usually to start by taking a reference measurement in the Main Listening Position (MLP). You then proceed to take several measurements around the MLP area as well as multiple measurements in the other nearby seating locations. The more seating positions the more measurements needed. If we look at Audyssey MultEQ-X or Dirac Live, they typically require a minimum of 9 measurements. But 12-15 is not uncommon, and that is per speaker for each position. So they add up fast.

Wow, I had no idea it was that complicated. Far out.

[BroDoze]

Makes perfect sense. ^^

So AdonisP91 I keep rereading your posts about REW and I’m not following real well. Is there no way to phase align using ATF PC-tool?
REW is still just coming off as Greek to me. Then the speaker groupings and stuff. Ugh. Not to mention the TA piece in REW vs ATF.

I found and posted a video on phase alignment. Maybe if I watch that 20 times again and reread your posts 20 times again I’ll get closer.

REW is definitely not as intuitive as ATF.

The phasing piece is really throwing me. I don’t want to skip it because it is so important. Really wish ATF had a built in phasing utility that paired with its TA utility.

Just still frustrated.

[BMW DIY Guy]

I appreciate the questions.. moreso just sound quality all up. What LITTLE I know I think means alignment can only be one location, so driver side.

I meant just the whole sound stage isn't abandoned for the rest of the car.

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Makes perfect sense. ^^

So AdonisP91 I keep rereading your posts about REW and I’m not following real well. Is there no way to phase align using ATF PC-tool?
REW is still just coming off as Greek to me. Then the speaker groupings and stuff. Ugh. Not to mention the TA piece in REW vs ATF.

I found and posted a video on phase alignment. Maybe if I watch that 20 times again and reread your posts 20 times again I’ll get closer.

REW is definitely not as intuitive as ATF.

The phasing piece is really throwing me. I don’t want to skip it because it is so important. Really wish ATF had a built in phasing utility that paired with its TA utility.

Just still frustrated.

100% you can just use the Time Alignment tool in ATF DSP PC tool. It is super easy to use and fast. Just download the sound tones from the ATF website and follow the instructions in the Time tab. I posted my guide for those that wanted a deeper dive.

ETA: Sorry misread, so adding for clarity. The time alignment tool in the DSP PC tool probably finds an ideal time and phase match. They don’t specifically mention phase though, so one can’t be sure. However, as I mentioned up thread in a perfect scenario a perfect time alignment results in perfect phase alignment. So as long as the ATF alignment tool does a good enough job it should have your phase pretty close to where you want it.

This video at about 40 minutes shows how to do the alignment in the DSP PC tool. The later part shows how to RTA EQ and the earlier parts show how to Input EQ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNgeGG13Qg0

[BroDoze]

Yeah, I definitely got my TA perfect in PC-Tool a few days ago, but I was specifically wondering about phase in PC-Tool. I wonder if can reach out to AFT or BT.

This is about all I’m finding online for AFT PC-Tool Phase stuff. Not seeing anything about the ability to see it really tunable, visually or automatically.

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...-PC-Tool/time/

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...P-PC-Tool/atm/

[AdonisP91]

Originally Posted by BroDoze

Yeah, I definitely got my TA perfect in PC-Tool a few days ago, but I was specifically wondering about phase in PC-Tool. I wonder if can reach out to AFT or BT.

This is about all I’m finding online for AFT PC-Tool Phase stuff. Not seeing anything about the ability to see it really tunable, visually or automatically.

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...-PC-Tool/time/

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/k...P-PC-Tool/atm/

Let me know what you find out. Btw if you email ATF in english, you will likely hear back from MSC America. I guess that is their affiliated partner in the US. When I used google translate and emailed them in German I got same day reply in German directly from ATF.