[afadeev]

Originally Posted by X5MnM3comp

How do you guys stand the charging time when you’re outside?

98% of the time I charge in my garage, or at work (cheaper, but harder to find an available charging plug).

Originally Posted by X5MnM3comp

At the end of my week of rental, per agreement I was supposed to charge the 3 to full or charged $ for the difference.

I made that mistake exactly once as well - do NOT rent an EV if you on a business trip!
Most contracts stipulate minimum SOC % (state of charge) upon return, and charging to just the right amount in the nick of time is a PITA. You can rent an EV if on vacation, or if you want to try them out. But if you are on a tight calendar and want to get to the airport just in time before take-off, charging EVs can become a handicap.

I went through that once, not doing that again.

Originally Posted by Mavus

For me one of the main issues is cold weather perf and usability esp cold soaked and frozen handles.

After 12+ winters with multiple EVs in NJ, frozen handles have happened exactly ZERO times.
Cold soaked batteries happen, same as cold soaked ICE engine blocks. Both will warm up as you drive.

Originally Posted by Mavus

Another topic that folks don’t talk about is that many older and non-tech drivers are not able to operate these new vehicles. There needs to be some sort of training to ensure these folks get familiar with tech evolution.

Not really.
My mom (not an EV person, can barely use an iPhone) can drive my Model 3 without issues.
Same physical lever to put the car in gear, same pedals, same steering wheel.
The rest is fluff that can be ignored.

HTH,
a

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

This is a good point. It isn't just about training, though. As people age, reflexes and vision and multitasking suffer. Even highly tech savvy older folks are not going to want the distraction. But, well designed voice systems may be the answer. Myself, I just need to remember to use it. I love the HUD. An expansion of both those functionalities can go a long way. Finding the massage button is impossible, but "Hey BMW, massage my back" works just fine. And despite people seemingly hating gesture control, I like it for changing volume and changing tracks. I can focus on the road.

right all of that applies hence why additional tests are required as we age to maintain dl but since diff manuf have diff ux say btw benz and bmw and lexus it would be good to have a crash course to ensure drivers know how to operate it similarly to Apple genius when you buy ipad etc. I know bmw provides an overview if desired but not sure if some folks would be intimidated to even start this conversation before purchasing it. I know folks that drive 30yo cars that are reluctant to buy new because they don’t know what to do without switchgear.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Tesla forums certainly have their share of nuts.
But pound for pound, this place has way more rabid anarchists and anti-EV-at-all-cost weirdos than the other way around. Unless, that is, you run into a vegan...

I generally agree with many of the observations and the sentiments, but will make a few corrections in case anyone is wondering.

• The most under-rated EV feature (for me) is ability to pre-heat or pre-cool the car to your liking on short notice. Any time of the year. That really stands out each time I drive my ICE cars.
• Squeaky steering is, most likely, failing FUCAs (front upper control arms). It's a weak point in Model 3 suspension that usually lasts ~35-50K miles.
  Very easy DIY job, but a job nonetheless.
• Fan speed is liable to whistle if you haven't replaced the HVAC filters (2 of them). A particularly contortionist job in MY'18-19 Model 3s, revised for easier maintenance in subsequent years.
• Stock Model 3 shocks are sh*t, and have minimal travel before hitting bump stops. Once you hit the bump stops, the suspension gets unsettled. Easily upgradable, as it is with BMWs (I highly recommend Ohlin's).
• You can turn TC fully OFF in Performance cars. TM3-Performance also comes with excellent track mode that allows infinite variations of torque transfer between front and rear axles/motors. You can NOT turn TC fully OFF in cheaper trims.
• Brakes are under-sized on non-Performance Model 3's, not that the 99+% of the buyers of those cars will ever notice!
• Tesla (and other commercial DC) SuperChargers are rip-offs. Tesla prices theirs at parity with cost of gasoline per mile, and then jacks the prices up/down depending on time of day, traffic, demand, etc.
• You absolutely have to have access to a home or work L2 chargers to get savings from electricity propulsion. The difference is ~4.5 : 1 in per mile EV cost advantage over gasoline when charging at home.
• Highway driving above 75 mph does consume more energy, as it does with ICE cars. We just don't care as much about mileage as EV drivers do .
• I get ~20% energy consumption penalty when doing 80+mph (allegedly) in an EV. So figure, ~3.5 : 1 in EV per mile cost advantage over gasoline when charging at home.
• I get additional ~5-20% energy consumption penalty when driving in sub-freezing temps, but this number is not a constant. If the battery is warm after spending the night in my garage, the penalty is ~0%. If the battery starts getting too cold, it uses energy to heat itself. The colder, the more energy is consumed, regardless of what temperature you set to maintain inside the cabin.
• You can buy a key fob, though I find that opening the car with cell-phones is far easier and more convenient. I've had 99.9% reliability with iPhones opening Model 3s, a bit more hit and miss with Androids, but keep a backup key card in my wallet anyway.
• Depending on battery chemistry in your car, you may (or may not) want to regularly charge to either 80% (NCA or NCM) or 100% (LFP) of battery capacity. For longer road trips, I charge to 100% without hesitation.
• Normally, I charge my NCM EV (Model 3) to 80% once a week (or longer), and LFP EV (Lexus RZ) to 100% once once a week (or longer). Unless I know I will go somewhere far, then it's 100% for both.

Thanks for the squeaky fan fix, ill look into the filter change, as i believe it was changed a little over a year ago.


From my understanding, you can not turn off traction or stability control 100%, unless you go into "drift" mode which is only the rear wheels when turning, then all wheels when straight so its really only good for doing donuts. Again, this is only in the performance model, unfortunately. Ive heard of people getting stuck in the snow because they cant turn off traction control. Slip start does not really disable it, it just gives you a little bit more at lower speeds, causing people issues in the snow.


The brakes are more than undersized. The brake pedal feel is mushy. It doesn't bite as well as my BMWs or even my 2018 Camry if you can believe that.


I spoke on the key fob in my post, do you have one?


LFP battery does not like to be charged 100% either just like lithium ion. If you need a link i can probably find the scientific study. LFP also enjoys similar charges BUT doesnt take *as* much abuse when 100% charged, again, still not "good" for it speaking of longevity.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I think the battery longevity issue is really not a concern. From the data I have reviewed, EV batteries, like most electronics, die early up front due to manufacturing/materials defect or have a very long life span as their design intends. The secondary market for EV is where it gets tough. Most ICEV that get to 200,000 miles are sold for a low price to a user base who repairs them in expensively to satisfactory useable condition. Maybe it will be the same for EV, but as I see it now, EV are far less owner-repairable than ICEV and can be dangerous to work on the drivetrain.

Something a lot of people don't understand is that lithium ion batteries will last hundreds of thousands of miles on average. Modern day 21700 cells (and others, that are put into modern day vehicles) are rated between 1500 - 4000 charge cycles, that means 450,000 - 1.2 million miles before it drops below 80% capacity.


It isnt the charge cycles, its the age and stress of the cell which kills it over the years, many packs are lasting 15+ years which exceeds the average 12 year car lifepsan. Newer batteries are even better, but data is limited

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by natedog7700

From my understanding, you can not turn off traction or stability control 100%, unless you go into "drift" mode which is only the rear wheels when turning, then all wheels when straight so its really only good for doing donuts. Again, this is only in the performance model, unfortunately.

I think you meant "track mode" - which in my TM3P allows to completely turn-off TC. I don't know why Tesla restricts it to Performance cars only (I suppose AWD one could benefit as well), but it is what it is:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/m...70F5506FD.html

Originally Posted by natedog7700

Ive heard of people getting stuck in the snow because they cant turn off traction control. Slip start does not really disable it, it just gives you a little bit more at lower speeds, causing people issues in the snow.

Slip start is something else.
Personally, I've never had problems in snow in 3P on snow tires, until the nose starts plowing fresh powder. Soon after that the volume of compacted snow under the nose starts lifting front wheels off the ground, and things can get exciting.

I remember having those exact problems in my 3-series as well.

Originally Posted by natedog7700

I spoke on the key fob in my post, do you have one?

No, I do not. Even though all my other cars have them.
I really appreciate the unlock-by-cell phone mode now. There are surprisingly many situations when you may want someone in your family get into the car when you are not near: shopping (drop off bags), leave the car for someone at train station / restaurant (and they hop into it whenever). Everyone in my family, including kids, have Tesla app with car unlock by proximity installed.

The only downside is you HAVE to take the phones out of the car when you park, else the car wont lock itself. But the same restriction applies to the physical key fobs.

Originally Posted by natedog7700

LFP battery does not like to be charged 100% either just like lithium ion. If you need a link i can probably find the scientific study. LFP also enjoys similar charges BUT doesnt take *as* much abuse when 100% charged, again, still not "good" for it speaking of longevity.

I disagree.
LFP is happy with 100% SOC levels. Unlike the other chemistries.
Things get more interesting when you start discussing DC vs. AC charging modes, charging rates, temperature management, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

A bit too much information is here:
https://shop.driveprotected.com/blog...20occasionally.

Originally Posted by natedog7700

Something a lot of people don't understand is that lithium ion batteries will last hundreds of thousands of miles on average. Modern day 21700 cells (and others, that are put into modern day vehicles) are rated between 1500 - 4000 charge cycles, that means 450,000 - 1.2 million miles before it drops below 80% capacity.

Exactly.
There has been a bit too much doom and gloom spread about EV battery longevity. Sometimes out of ignorance, occasionally on purpose.

I had run a deep-cycle Tesla battery test on my MY'19 TM3P with 68K miles last summer. The results were that battery was at 89.7% of the stated capacity. The rate of SOC degradation is an exponential decay function, with much degradation happening in the first year and then rate of decay slowing.
I find my 6-year mark perfectly acceptable, and have zero worries about approaching 70% SOC warranty limit by 120K mile / 8 year. Maybe by 2x that, if ever.

a

[roo97ss]

Figured I should Chime in.

I have had 20 BMWs over the past 25 years. Generally smaller performance oriented cars, 135s, 335s, older 330, 435, M3s, M4s, M5, 550, 750, x3 and X6s so I’m a BMW fan boy of sorts. Everything has been moderately modded along with a handful of supercharged GM muscle cars, up to about 700 rwhp.

Currently we have an X6M and M2, along with a ram pickup truck ICE vehicles.

21 S plaid and 22 Model Y Performance. Have had the model Y a bit over 2 years and the plaid just under 2 years.

We live in the mid Atlantic. From Washington DC to NYC the Tesla network is very strong so range extended charging is never an issue.

We do have chargers at home, 2 of them actually as I didn’t want to bother plugging and un-plugging cars.

We rarely do charge outside of the home. I couldn’t imagine dealing with a EV without access to home charging. It’s great never having to go to the gas station and leaving with a full tank every morning.

Heat pumps are great. Efficient and able to heat cool immediately if you forget to turn them on and the ability to flip them on from your phone.

My phones (new Samsungs and my wife new iPhones) never have any problems. The S has fobs and both have the credit card keys. I can always have both keys in my wallet in case the phone fails. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve left my BMW or Ram unlocked as I’m spoiled by the proximity locking of the tesla. Plus no buttons to press once you’re in the car.

The Model Y has the regular wheel, shifter and turn signal. It could use a few buttons instead of the screen, but I can say once you know the screen it’s all there and easy to use. Plus the screen is super fast, so much better than everything else I’ve been in lately.

The S had the yoke (fighter jet) wheel. It’s stupid in this car where you have to turn it over and over with whatever it is 2.5 turns lock to lock. The adaptive steering on the cybertruck makes sense, but it was stupid in the car. I have put in a real steering wheel.
The lack of turn signal is annoying, not having a horn where the horn goes also dumb.
The slide to shift at least has been addressed by it now predicting if you are in reverse or drive, which works about 90 percent.

What I like.
1. Incredibly smooth. No shifting at all, power delivery is so linear and smooth as well as stopping and slowdown. I find the regen setting and 1 pedal driving fantastic. Rarely using the actual brakes.

2. In the end it has every option that I would want other than heads up display. Heated, cooled seats, climate air, good headlights, great cameras/sensors, and all of the safety items, braking, cross path, blind spot, etc. All included, no expensive packages. Great stereo. I’ve never had a bang and olufsuon so I can’t compare that, but the HK in the X6, 750, M5 isn’t as good as the S, and the HK in the 2, 3, 4 series isn’t as good as the model Y.

3. The power in the Y. Instant on demand power is just wonderful. Even the model Y is great to drive in traffic, on the highway, etc. Just lean into a bit to accelerate dramatically to move, cut in and out, etc.

4. The power in the plaid. It’s not crazy, ridiculous, even ludicrous, it’s plaid. Imagine tuning up an M4 or M5 to max boost, the type that throws codes and limp modes here and there. Then drive around in 2nd or 3rd gear so you’re somewhere around 5000 to 5500 rpm at all times at the edge of peak boost and it still wouldn’t compare to the power under your foot. What’s crazy is when you want to go a bit crazy you realize you’re not even maxing it out.

While the M3P and MYP as well as mustang Mach GT I’ve driven has a nice hard hit at low speeds, the Plaid maintains that kind of jump at 80 or even 100 mph. I mean low 9s at 150 plus in the 1/4, AWD, hatchback, room for 5. I think Motor Trend clocked it at 4.3 sec to 100, that’s respectable on the road to 60mph in ICE sedans.

5. The ride in the plaid is nice. Between adaptive dampers and ride height along with better sound deadening it’s a great place to spend highway time in. Plus the interior is pretty good quality, definitely nicer than the lower end BMWs, not quite as nice as M5, 750. The Y does feel a bit cheap inside, though the seats, arm rests and steering wheel are all quite fine.

The Model Y is a bit choppy and sporty. M sport BMW, not comfort or Mercedes at all. In general I think they should have done a better job with the ride and road noise.

What I don’t like.

1. Road trips, long rides. It doesn’t seem like stopping for fuel. 15 to 20 min of charging is way longer than the 5 min it takes to pump gas.

Generally if we are going over 200 miles we drive a gas car, under that EV.

2. The turn signals, yoke and shifting on the S are stupid.

3. No buttons at all on the console is a bit of a drag. The one I would like would be a volume button and door lock.

4. AS noted without a charger at home I can’t see doing EV.

5. The model Y has the stupid door handle you have to push and pull. Not worth the look. The S at one point wouldn’t present the handle on the passenger door, that did require a trip back to dealer. I’m not sure what happened. Car went in for a windshield and recalibration after replacement at dealer and this didn’t work after. Needed to return next day and have them re’-flash something. Otherwise both cars have been trouble free.

6. Model Y Performance comes with low profile 21s (255/35 and 275/35). For the winter I have 255/50/19s on it. Rides better despite them being snow tires. I think it needs smaller wheels, like most BMWs for a better ride. Part of it is the suspension itself. Kind of reminds me of when BMW first switched to run flats, when the suspension was somehow both harsh and floaty at times.


I bought the M2 as I miss driving a manual and I do like it better than my M4 that I had previously.

The X6M 2018, has the stupid ZF8 that they make behave like a DCT. Unnecessarily clunky and cumbersome feeling. Makes the electric seem that much smoother. While powerful, that V8 does need a few RPM to get the torque up, so it just doesn’t have that smooth ride the EVs provide. My wife loves the X6. We’ve have 4 of them over the years. We do road trip it, but it could surely use some more space at times. The frunk is actually useful in the EV. My wife doesn’t like the look of the X5 which is the obvious choice for more room.

I think where things are currently having both in your household makes sense. Road trips and manual transmissions are still some of the best driving experiences around and both best in ICE vehicles.

The daily grind is wonderful in the efficient, powerful and smooth EVs. I calculate my electrics at about 100 to 110 mpg based on current gas prices compared to what I pay at home for charging.

Feel free to ask any questions. I ended up buying the plaid used right after the big price drop in 2023, so I paid 75k for it with 12 k miles on it. Cheaper than a similar M5, and the Model Y performance to me is indeed cheaper than an X3m, similar to x3 M40. So value is there in my opinion.

[gaseosx]

I think people are misconstruing some of the noise levels. With no ICE engine to cover up noises an EV is really silent in the cabin where any little noise seems really loud in comparison, which makes the road noise really noticeable.

My 2020 M3P really improved going from 20” oem Pirellis to 18” Hankook Ion AS, much better noise levels than my boss’s M3 with 18” oem Michelin AS.

I bought the M3P used, to put less commuter miles on my Z4. Even accounting for not having a charger at home this is still cheaper than my Z4 (oil, brakes, etc). I occasionally drive down to Socal for work and it’s nice expensing the miles on it. Single charge for lunch to make it to the hotel then charge during dinner to last me the week while I’m down there.

Funny story, I drove to Vegas for a wedding and there was a truck that ignited the oversize load of commercial lithium batteries it was carrying that closed highway 15 for the entire day. Went from a 8 hour trip to a 20 hour trip due to traffic and detours. Thank god I was in an EV, lines for gas 3-4 blocks long or even longer, people running out of gas due to idling, a major shit show. There wasn’t even a line when I got out of that mess to charge.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by afadeev

I think you meant "track mode" - which in my TM3P allows to completely turn-off TC. I don't know why Tesla restricts it to Performance cars only (I suppose AWD one could benefit as well), but it is what it is:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/m...70F5506FD.html



Slip start is something else.
Personally, I've never had problems in snow in 3P on snow tires, until the nose starts plowing fresh powder. Soon after that the volume of compacted snow under the nose starts lifting front wheels off the ground, and things can get exciting.

I remember having those exact problems in my 3-series as well.



No, I do not. Even though all my other cars have them.
I really appreciate the unlock-by-cell phone mode now. There are surprisingly many situations when you may want someone in your family get into the car when you are not near: shopping (drop off bags), leave the car for someone at train station / restaurant (and they hop into it whenever). Everyone in my family, including kids, have Tesla app with car unlock by proximity installed.

The only downside is you HAVE to take the phones out of the car when you park, else the car wont lock itself. But the same restriction applies to the physical key fobs.



I disagree.
LFP is happy with 100% SOC levels. Unlike the other chemistries.
Things get more interesting when you start discussing DC vs. AC charging modes, charging rates, temperature management, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

A bit too much information is here:
https://shop.driveprotected.com/blog...20occasionally.



Exactly.
There has been a bit too much doom and gloom spread about EV battery longevity. Sometimes out of ignorance, occasionally on purpose.

I had run a deep-cycle Tesla battery test on my MY'19 TM3P with 68K miles last summer. The results were that battery was at 89.7% of the stated capacity. The rate of SOC degradation is an exponential decay function, with much degradation happening in the first year and then rate of decay slowing.
I find my 6-year mark perfectly acceptable, and have zero worries about approaching 70% SOC warranty limit by 120K mile / 8 year. Maybe by 2x that, if ever.

a

The link you sent me literally says 20 - 80% charge for LFP, am i missing something?

Track mode DOES NOT disable Traction control, it reduces it to -10 whatever that equates to for teslas software. It also will not fully disable Stability control, which is the fun part when you are on track. Its unfortunate, but really, they should just allow people to fully disable the nannies, like other performance cars or the Hyundai Ionic 5 EV

The Key Fob does not work as well as other car manufactures fobs, it has a lag effect at times from what i understand. This was one of my points about it.

[natedog7700]

Originally Posted by gaseosx

I think people are misconstruing some of the noise levels. With no ICE engine to cover up noises an EV is really silent in the cabin where any little noise seems really loud in comparison, which makes the road noise really noticeable.

My 2020 M3P really improved going from 20” oem Pirellis to 18” Hankook Ion AS, much better noise levels than my boss’s M3 with 18” oem Michelin AS.

I bought the M3P used, to put less commuter miles on my Z4. Even accounting for not having a charger at home this is still cheaper than my Z4 (oil, brakes, etc). I occasionally drive down to Socal for work and it’s nice expensing the miles on it. Single charge for lunch to make it to the hotel then charge during dinner to last me the week while I’m down there.

Funny story, I drove to Vegas for a wedding and there was a truck that ignited the oversize load of commercial lithium batteries it was carrying that closed highway 15 for the entire day. Went from a 8 hour trip to a 20 hour trip due to traffic and detours. Thank god I was in an EV, lines for gas 3-4 blocks long or even longer, people running out of gas due to idling, a major shit show. There wasn’t even a line when I got out of that mess to charge.

Wonder why they wouldn't just turn off the engine if they are sitting idle, knowing they are running low on fuel. EV's do have their perks though, cheaper than a BMW to run is not surprising, as its more comparable to an eco box.

[gaseosx]

Originally Posted by natedog7700

Wonder why they wouldn't just turn off the engine if they are sitting idle, knowing they are running low on fuel. EV's do have their perks though, cheaper than a BMW to run is not surprising, as its more comparable to an eco box.

It was like 110f outside so that’s the main reason why.