[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Are you able to provide any proof to back up your statement?

I'm truly amazed anyone with any experience would dispute that winter tires don't perform as well as UHPAS in dry conditions. Winter tires are necessarily squishy in comparison... that a big part why Winter tires perform better in snow and ice. They're really soft, with a relatively deep tread and lots of sipes.

To me it's a matter of how you're biasing your tire setup. Winter tires are for someone that wants no compromises in snowy and/or icy conditions... at the expense of dry condition performance. This should be an accepted reality.

My argument is that this bias towards snowy conditions is foolish for most people because of the limited time spent driving in these conditions. I think people could argue the bias is justified, but to act like it isn't there is just ridiculous.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'm truly amazed anyone with any experience would dispute that winter tires don't perform as well as UHPAS in dry conditions. Winter tires are necessarily squishy in comparison... that a big part why Winter tires perform better in snow and ice. They're really soft, with a relatively deep tread and lots of sipes.

To me it's a matter of how you're biasing your tire setup. Winter tires are for someone that wants no compromises in snowy and/or icy conditions... at the expense of dry condition performance. This should be an accepted reality. My argument is that this bias towards snowy conditions is foolish for most people because of the limited time spent driving in these conditions.

You quoted me before I added the video. Go back and take a look at what Continental thinks. Sadly I think you input is based solely on opinion.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'm truly amazed anyone with any experience would dispute that winter tires don't perform as well as UHPAS in dry conditions. Winter tires are necessarily squishy in comparison... that a big part why Winter tires perform better in snow and ice. They're really soft, with a relatively deep tread and lots of sipes.

To me it's a matter of how you're biasing your tire setup. Winter tires are for someone that wants no compromises in snowy and/or icy conditions... at the expense of dry condition performance. This should be an accepted reality.

My argument is that this bias towards snowy conditions is foolish for most people because of the limited time spent driving in these conditions. I think people could argue the bias is justified, but to act like it isn't there is just ridiculous.

But you don't seem to understand winter tires are not just for snow.

A winter tire will perform better on dry roads with a temp of 7c or lower.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

But you don't seem to understand winter tires are not just for snow.

A winter tire will perform better on dry roads with a temp of 7c or lower.

Looking at almost every tire manufacturer’s website, they all agree with this statement.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

But you don't seem to understand winter tires are not just for snow.

A winter tire will perform better on dry roads with a temp of 7c or lower.

You're not grasping the concept of biasing your choice of tires. I never said winter tires are just for snow. I'm saying winter tires are biased towards snowy icy conditions at the expense of dry performance. Everything in life involves give and take. Tire choice included.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by david in germany

You quoted me before I added the video. Go back and take a look at what Continental thinks. Sadly I think you input is based solely on opinion.

My input is based on decades of experience driving all different vehicles with all different tire categories. As for the video... I see that as marketing material to sell tires by convincing people to not just use all season tires year round, and are not specific to UHPAS category tires.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

You're not grasping the concept of biasing your choice of tires. I never said winter tires are just for snow. I'm saying winter tires are biased towards snowy icy conditions at the expense of dry performance. Everything in life involves give and take. Tire choice included.

You are not grasping the concept of “temperature”.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by david in germany

You are not grasping the concept of "temperature".

If that were true I'd run my summer tires year round.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

My input is based on years of experience driving all different vehicles with all different tire categories. As for the video... I see that as marketing material to sell tires by convincing people to not just use all season tires year round, and are not specific to UHPAS category tires.

I have been a driver of commercial vehicles fo over 30 years from small transporters to 60 ton heavy equipment transporters. I stopped counting my commercial miles many many years ago. I have driven in every condition you could imagine. I have witness accidents because of incorrect tires used. Your opinion is just that. An opinion. You are welcome to have your opinion but I hope that you never influence someone’s buying decision with your opinion. It could cost them a life.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I have been a driver of commercial vehicles fo over 30 years from small transporters to 60 ton heavy equipment transporters. I stopped counting my commercial miles many many years ago. I have driven in every condition you could imagine. I have witness accidents because of incorrect tires used. Your opinion is just that. An opinion. You are welcome to have your opinion but I hope that you never influence someone's buying decision with your opinion. It could cost them a life.

Holy crap we may have finally come to an agreement.

My opinion is... for how I use my car (+95% of the time there is no snow, ice, or extreme cold), a UHPAS is a better choice. Others may hold the opinion that tires designed primarily for snow, ice, and extreme cold is a better choice for them. I might even say this about my girlfriend who doesn't put a premium on performance, and might be better off with a winter tire... but for me... someone seeking the best dry performance, a winter category tire isn't the best option.

My entire intention here is to help people open their eyes to what is the best choice for them. Tire companies are working to get people out from just running their Touring category all season tires all year. My contention is people are getting caught in the marketing hype and many times are not picking the best performing tires for how they use their car the majority of the time.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Holy crap we may have finally come to an agreement.

My opinion is... for how I use my car (+95% of the time there is no snow, ice, or extreme cold), a UHPAS is a better choice. Others may hold the opinion that tires designed primarily for snow, ice, and extreme cold is a better choice for them. I might even say this about my girlfriend who doesn't put a premium on performance, and might be better off with a winter tire... but for me... someone seeking the best dry performance, a winter category tire isn't the best option.

My entire intention here is to help people open their eyes to what is the best choice for them. Tire companies are working to get people out from just running their Touring category all season tires all year. My contention is people are getting caught in the marketing hype and many times are not picking the best performing tires for how they use their car the majority of the time.

Our continent. david in germany doesn’t mean david from germany.

[10"]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

No that is false. You keep thinking that what is on the surface is all that matters. It's not!

I agree if you want to run UHPAS all year that is an option as they aim to perform better in winter conditions, but they are still not the best choice.

And in your case, you already have summer tires. Going with UHPAS for your colder/winter times make zero sense as based on North Jersey temperature graphs, you could run your winters from November to April, the temps hits 7c or below + you get some snow.

I've been driving on some Nokian hakkapeliitta and I can still hit my exit curve at 130km/h and the hanlding is stable.

Like I said, I agree above 7c winter tires "melt" their threads. But under those temps, it's perfectly acceptable and is the best option to run a winter tire even without to much snow.

this.

UHPAS tires are garbage in wet and dry. today in NYC the weather is 28 degrees and my X-Ice 3s will FAR outperform any AS tire.......doesn't matter if it's snowing or not. It's about the compound behaviour in different temperatures. This isn't even discussing the traction or tread in the wet; JUST DRY even.

if you have an AWD car then UHPAS tires may work but STILL woudn't be optimal. In fact i can't see them being optimal in any temperature. Some people don't have the means to store extra wheels and tires; and on an AWD that might be a comprimised solution. On a RWD car? it's totally suboptimal every time.

People keep telling this dude TEMPERATURE and he keeps missing the point.....lol

[RM7]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

You're not grasping the concept of biasing your choice of tires. I never said winter tires are just for snow. I'm saying winter tires are biased towards snowy icy conditions at the expense of dry performance. Everything in life involves give and take. Tire choice included.

No, winter tire tread compounds are engineered to not get hard and lose traction when it gets cold. It doesn't matter if it's dry or icy, when the pavement is cold, high performance tires will suck and all-seasons will suffer too. You really should think about a better choice of words, other than "dry", I think what you mean to say is "warm". Some of us drive in places where the pavement remains very cold, due to little daytime heating, in fact, a lot of BMW drivers do across Canada, Norway/Sweden/Finland, Russia and others. It doesn't need to be -40 to experience this either. It's all about compromises. IMO, life is too short to not experience summer performance tires in summer, but that depends significantly on the vehicle, if not a high performance vehicle, then not as important.

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by 10"

this.

UHPAS tires are garbage in wet and dry. today in NYC the weather is 28 degrees and my X-Ice 3s will FAR outperform any AS tire.......doesn't matter if it's snowing or not. It's about the compound behaviour in different temperatures. This isn't even discussing the traction or tread in the wet; JUST DRY even.

if you have an AWD car then UHPAS tires may work but STILL woudn't be optimal. In fact i can't see them being optimal in any temperature. Some people don't have the means to store extra wheels and tires; and on an AWD that might be a comprimised solution. On a RWD car? it's totally suboptimal every time.

People keep telling this dude TEMPERATURE and he keeps missing the point.....lol

Plus he already as a set of summers! It's not even about not wanting another set of tires, since he wants to use UHPAS in the winter.

[10"]

Originally Posted by TheMidnightNarwhal

Plus he already as a set of summers! It's not even about not wanting another set of tires, since he wants to use UHPAS in the winter.

this logic literally makes NO sense at all. lol.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

I can think of all kinds of scenarios (like mine) where Summer + UHPAS tires is the best prescription. Are people so unimaginative that they can envision such a situation? smh

Let's remove snow and ice and only talk temperatures...

Let's say someone lives is a part of the world where during the winter months, 25% of time it gets too cold for Summer tires; and 25% of the time it gets too warm for winter tires... and their car will never see snow. You'd still suggest this person put winter tires on? Not me.

Or my father... He drives his 50th anniversary Mustang GT from NJ to Florida every January, then drives back to NJ at the end of February. It might be a little too sketchy to make this trip with his summer rubber; and it's too warm down in Florida to run winter tires.... So he puts UHPAS on in the winter.

I see UHPAS tires as akin to intermediate racing tires... they bridge the gap between summer and winter tires.

[10"]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I can think of all kinds of scenarios (like mine) where Summer + UHPAS tires is the best prescription. Are people so unimaginative that they can envision such a situation? smh

Let's remove snow and ice and only talk temperatures...

Let's say someone lives is a part of the world where during the winter months, 25% of time it gets too cold for Summer tires; and 25% of the time it gets too warm for winter tires... and their car will never see snow. You'd still suggest this person put winter tires on? Not me.

Or my father... He drives his 50th anniversary Mustang GT from NJ to Florida every January, then drives back to NJ at the end of February. It might be a little too sketchy to make this trip with his summer rubber; and it's too warm down in Florida to run winter tires.... So he puts UHPAS on in the winter.

I see UHPAS tires as akin to intermediate racing tires... they bridge the gap between summer and winter tires.

Great summer tires like PSS are way better than any AS tire until 50 degrees. Under 50 degrees a good winter tire is waaaay better than any AS tire in the dry. There really is no reason why somebody who lives where you do would use all season tires for the winter months...

Just because you follow some broken logic about this all doesn't change the facts about how these tires perform in different temperatures!

[RM7]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I can think of all kinds of scenarios (like mine) where Summer + UHPAS tires is the best prescription. Are people so unimaginative that they can envision such a situation? smh

Let's remove snow and ice and only talk temperatures...

Let's say someone lives is a part of the world where during the winter months, 25% of time it gets too cold for Summer tires; and 25% of the time it gets too warm for winter tires... and their car will never see snow. You'd still suggest this person put winter tires on? Not me.

Or my father... He drives his 50th anniversary Mustang GT from NJ to Florida every January, then drives back to NJ at the end of February. It might be a little too sketchy to make this trip with his summer rubber; and it's too warm down in Florida to run winter tires.... So he puts UHPAS on in the winter.

I see UHPAS tires as akin to intermediate racing tires... they bridge the gap between summer and winter tires.

I noticed a big difference living and driving in places where the temperature would occasionally get into the single digits (below 32°F) and where the temperature was constantly colder than 20°F and there was limited sun. In the second experience, the ground simply remains "cold" and the surface doesn't heat like it does in warmer climates. I didn't notice much lack of traction in the first example, until I actually got on icy/snowy surfaces. In the second example, it doesn't take that.

Yeah, every year we hear about people in Alabama and Florida asking about winter tires, because there are two storms a year that completely shut down Atlanta and they have to wait for it to melt anyways, but many people live in higher latitudes or much colder high altitude places where they make sense, especially to maximize winter driving safety. Then when the temp is regularly above 40, summers go back on. There are more things that influence the temp of the tires and traction, like sun heating the surface in the middle of the day, friction, whether your car was stored outside, etc. This means the temp of the tires may not be the air-temp or the temp of the road may be significantly colder than the air temp (we get that here all the time).

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by 10"

Under 50 degrees a good winter tire is waaaay better than any AS tire in the dry.

My experience proves otherwise.

[aaaaah]

The performance range actually goes more along the lines of what is expected if you just think about the compound. When it is too hot, all season compound becomes too soft and you lose performance which is where a summer compound works. As the temperature drops below 5C/41F, the compound used in all seasons is still in a good temperature range, but the summer tyres have now hit their glass transition. As the temperature drops below -5C/23F, all seasons start to get too stiff and winter tyres begin to outperform them.

Hot - Summer Tyres
Cold - All Seasons
Below Freezing - Winter Tyres

This is assuming dry conditions as otherwise we end up in a hurr durr you call that snow argument as has happened in the previous dozen or more posts.

It's just basic chemistry from the compound that determines this.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

The performance range actually goes more along the lines of what is expected if you just think about the compound. When it is too hot, all season compound becomes too soft and you lose performance which is where a summer compound works. As the temperature drops below 5C/41F, the compound used in all seasons is still in a good temperature range, but the summer tyres have now hit their glass transition. As the temperature drops below -5C/23F, all seasons start to get too stiff and winter tyres begin to outperform them.

Hot - Summer Tyres
Cold - All Seasons
Below Freezing - Winter Tyres

This is assuming dry conditions as otherwise we end up in a hurr durr you call that snow argument as has happened in the previous dozen or more posts.

It's just basic chemistry from the compound that determines this.

Thank you. Yes, it comes down to the tread compound and the temperature of the tire/road interface you'll be driving on.

[LOW4LYF]

One Snow flake in NJ/NY and it's like end of world because stupid people driving summer tires. I don't need winter tires, my car is AWD... lol