[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by NotSharocks

Last time I checked, the 1M had an N54 which is a twin turbo I6.

Can't trust these new TG bellends.

Also, that ZF gearbox is nothing but garbage. Broken in or not.

Does not compare in any way to a GT4's linkage.

BMW definitely threw them the keys and said "be kind".

BMW calls them all “Twin-Power” so it’s quite easy to be confused

Single or twin turbo,,, They’re marketed with the exact same verbiage… “Twin-Power”

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

This is simply not true.

To be clear, I’m talking F vs. G. I’ve not seen a single review state BMW improved the EPAS going from F > G. Anyone who’s commented on the EPAS seems to think the steering is lighter and gives less feedback than the previous generation.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

To be clear, I’m talking F vs. G. I’ve not seen a single review state BMW improved the EPAS going from F > G. Anyone who’s commented on the EPAS seems to think the steering is lighter and gives less feedback than the previous generation.

I understood, and it is false.
Anyone who? Can you name them all? Maybe they are the same ones who say the N54 is a single-turbo engine? Please stop trusting questionable influencers and making false statements based on someone else's opinion, try the cars and then talk.
The current M-EPS (G8x) is much better than its predecessor, though far from being a great steering. It's lighter, but the feedback is better and you can finally drive straight without having to constantly correct the steering, whereas the previous one had a very vague centre position and poor feedback (especially the first version, slightly improved >2017).
The old steering was unnecessarily hard without providing any real feedback, finally Bmw realised that harder doesn't mean better.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

This is simply not true.

Spend 2 seconds and look at what he drives, and you realize it’s “his truth”.

It never fails.

[NathObeaN]

I didn’t claim all reviewers state the G series steering gives less feedback/lighter feel. I said I haven’t seen a reviewer claim the EPAS has improved vs. F series. From the numerous reviews I’ve seen, those that comment on the steering, all state that feedback/feel has declined. Feel free to point me to one that states otherwise (reputable). I’ve also never heard a reviewer claim BMW’s EPAS is better than Porsche’s, because it’s not. Therefore, it’s easy to conclude BMW could improve. Nothing controversial there?

I’m also not bowing to instagram influencer opinion, I’m referring to seasoned reviewers (I don’t even have an instagram account for the record, call me old). One of the reviewers who commented on the reduced steering feel is also a friend of mine, so I’m not just taking ‘internet opinion’ either. I asked him about his review comments first-hand and he doubled down (more critical than what he’d like to share publically).

Besides, my comments re reviewers were so that others could relate, rather than give my anecdotal view. You jumped to the assumption I have no first-hand experience. I do. I have driven a track-tuned G82 M4, and I complained about the steering (amoung other things like the ZF) at the time.

While I agree that it does seem BMW has improved accuracy/tramline effect of the steering, I (and many others), do not think that steering feel/weighting/feedback has improved. But, those are just opinions, not facts. You’re more than welcome to think the opposite

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Spend 2 seconds and look at what he drives, and you realize it’s “his truth”.

It never fails.

If you can’t attack the content, attack the person. Low move sir. I could easily throw the same comment at you, but I don’t, because it’s lame. I’m entitled to an opinion no matter what I drive. I drive many cars, not just an F87.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

If you can’t attack the content, attack the person. Low move sir. I could easily throw the same comment at you, but I don’t, because it’s lame. I’m entitled to an opinion no matter what I drive. I drive many cars, not just an F87.

Me saying you’re biased is attacking you?

Am I attacking you now?

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Me saying you’re biased is attacking you?

Am I attacking you now?

You offered nothing constructive to the conversation. You could have attacked/criticised the content with some valuable insight or references. Instead, you visited my profile, and in 2 seconds, made an assumption, and attacked that. And, you’re still offering nothing constructive.

[thaalrasha]

That's the problem with the G8x gen, while more capable and better everywhere, you've lost a lot of driver involvement and went from some savage beasts you had to respect that would bite you back on the F8x to some car on rails you can push anywhere and be fine with the mxdrive (not on the G87 of course ) and have a luxury drive in the process. Moving from F87, F82, G80 and soon G81 that's my honest opinion, the G8x is a much better daily and faster car but for weekend fun i'd still take an F8x instead and if i go for a track day i'd take the G8x again cause they really come alive there and are more capable.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

I didn’t claim all reviewers state the G series steering gives less feedback/lighter feel. I said I haven’t seen a reviewer claim the EPAS has improved vs. F series. From the numerous reviews I’ve seen, those that comment on the steering, all state that feedback/feel has declined. Feel free to point me to one that states otherwise (reputable). I’ve also never heard a reviewer claim BMW’s EPAS is better than Porsche’s, because it’s not. Therefore, it’s easy to conclude BMW could improve. Nothing controversial there?

I’m also not bowing to instagram influencer opinion, I’m referring to seasoned reviewers (I don’t even have an instagram account for the record, call me old). One of the reviewers who commented on the reduced steering feel is also a friend of mine, so I’m not just taking ‘internet opinion’ either. I asked him about his review comments first-hand and he doubled down (more critical than what he’d like to share publically).

Besides, my comments re reviewers were so that others could relate, rather than give my anecdotal view. You jumped to the assumption I have no first-hand experience. I do. I have driven a track-tuned G82 M4, and I complained about the steering (amoung other things like the ZF) at the time.

While I agree that it does seem BMW has improved accuracy/tramline effect of the steering, I (and many others), do not think that steering feel/weighting/feedback has improved. But, those are just opinions, not facts. You’re more than welcome to think the opposite

Better than its predecessor does not mean better or at the level of Porsche, there is still room for improvement but a step forward compared to the previous generation has been made, already on the normal non-M cars.
Is a former professional driver reputable enough?
https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/03/09/chris-harris-drives-bmw-m3/

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Better than its predecessor does not mean better or at the level of Porsche, there is still room for improvement but a step forward compared to the previous generation has been made, already on the normal non-M cars.
Is a former professional driver reputable enough?
https://www.bmwblog.com/2021/03/09/chris-harris-drives-bmw-m3/

Completely agree sir. Porsche still has the best EPAS in the industry (IMO, from what I’ve experienced, maybe there is better, Lotus hydraulic for example is still better).

And yes, I have a lot of respect for Chris Harris. But, this is what he says ‘the steering is really really good’… ok… then ‘there’s not a huge amount of weighting and old-fashioned feel as they call it’… he then goes on to say it’s accuracy and rotational capability is incredible. All of his commentary is to do with chassis tuning, accuracy and ability to turn/rotate. He never compliments the EPAS for feedback, in fact, he criticises it.

Again, in my opinion, feedback is hugely important. It’s why I love Porsche EPAS and Lotus hydraulic steering. It’s something important to me. It may not be to you/others, and all that matters is accuracy etc. and that’s fine.

[playswcars]

"The one with the most gear changes wins"


--What?

[VIERsr]

Porsche has found the magic for electric steering, Bmw hasn't. It must also be said that Bmw had accustomed us to excellent hydraulic steering (up to the 1M/ M3 E92), in those days the gap with Porsche steering was not as big as it is today, they could play it off.
Audi has even improved in switching from hydraulic to electric steering (well, their old hydraulic steering really sucked).

[Montaver]

Where BMW makes some questionable decisions is outside of their M cars the rack is not linear. My M340i for example uses the same rack as the previous F series with modified gearing to make the change more progressive but it’s still there. Makes it less intuitive to place when driving quickly as the ratio tightens up the more you put in but you get used to it. In the M cars they make the ratio very quick to give the car a more agile feeling, but it is linear (or certainly feels linear). Personally I find it easy to place the cars with the new M racks, oversteer you feel with your behind and understeer you feel with your hands it’s just quite over filtered.

I have owned two GT4’s which both have linear racks, both easy to place, but you get more texture through the wheel. The 718 in particular has a really intuitive progressive weighting and zero on center slop. I have no doubt BMW could engineer something similar they just choose not too. I don’t think the gap is that big though personally and once you are driving fast they both fade into the background, they are just designed differently.

Edit - to add the biggest bugbear with the current M wheel is it is stupidly thick, which does not help feeling at all. The Porsche GT wheel by contrast is a very tactile thickness.

[NathObeaN]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Edit - to add the biggest bugbear with the current M wheel is it is stupidly thick, which does not help feeling at all. The Porsche GT wheel by contrast is a very tactile thickness.

Man after my own heart. I ended up getting a custom made wheel with thickness equivalent to current Porsche spec haha.

[VIERsr]

This is also true, to add bad to bad, the fat wheel is not very ergonomic.

[KCuv]

I for one was at the PCar Dealer, about to put a deposit down on a gt4 myself - I went for the M2, knowing that the gt4 was a better car, simply because of the backseats. I don't think theres a better "special" car than the M2 avail that is manual that I can take my 4 year old daughter to school or ice cream or cars & coffee in with me. Sure you could argue a C2S could fit the bill, and 911s are my favorite but at 150k for a "not special" car - I think the M2 was a better buy for fun + expected high resale.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Porsche has found the magic for electric steering, Bmw hasn't. It must also be said that Bmw had accustomed us to excellent hydraulic steering (up to the 1M/ M3 E92), in those days the gap with Porsche steering was not as big as it is today, they could play it off.
Audi has even improved in switching from hydraulic to electric steering (well, their old hydraulic steering really sucked).

I think Porsche has managed to make their electric steering feel about as good as prior hydraulic assistance systems, but it is closer to the G87 feel than that of the unassisted system in my Caterham (although a badly setup Caterham suspension system can make the steering feel dire).

From my experience: Caterham >>> 718 > G87 > F87 > F22 from a steering feel perspective.

[VIERsr]

Originally Posted by aerobod

I think Porsche has managed to make their electric steering feel about as good as prior hydraulic assistance systems, but it is closer to the G87 feel than that of the unassisted system in my Caterham (although a badly setup Caterham suspension system can make the steering feel dire).

From my experience: Caterham >>> 718 > G87 > F87 > F22 from a steering feel perspective.

Of course, with the Caterham you have the feeling of moving the wheels directly with your hands, it's another level of feedback.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by thaalrasha

Moving from F87, F82, G80 and soon G81 that's my honest opinion, the G8x is a much better daily and faster car but for weekend fun i'd still take an F8x instead and if i go for a track day i'd take the G8x again cause they really come alive there and are more capable.

Buy a G87, put shitty tires on the back, turn off MDM, have fun hooning around. You can absolutely toss the G87 around all you want and kick the rear out and drift, etc. The G87 can do everything the F87 can do. Then on track day, put good tires back on.

It's easy to make a good car worse, it's hard to make a bad car better.

[adc]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

I understood, and it is false.
Anyone who? Can you name them all? Maybe they are the same ones who say the N54 is a single-turbo engine? Please stop trusting questionable influencers and making false statements based on someone else's opinion, try the cars and then talk.
The current M-EPS (G8x) is much better than its predecessor, though far from being a great steering. It's lighter, but the feedback is better and you can finally drive straight without having to constantly correct the steering, whereas the previous one had a very vague centre position and poor feedback (especially the first version, slightly improved >2017).
The old steering was unnecessarily hard without providing any real feedback, finally Bmw realised that harder doesn't mean better.

Disagree. The G8x rack offers far less feedback than the F8x - could be the extra weight, or the suspension geometry, don’t know, but the new one just doesn’t offer any feedback.

I don’t have sufficient G8x seat time to comment on the difference in linearity, but the lack of feedback is easy to notice within the first 100 yards.

Too bad you are an ocean away, I would offer my car for a back to back comparison.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by adc

Disagree. The G8x rack offers far less feedback than the F8x - could be the extra weight, or the suspension geometry, don’t know, but the new one just doesn’t offer any feedback.

I don’t have sufficient G8x seat time to comment on the difference in linearity, but the lack of feedback is easy to notice within the first 100 yards.

Too bad you are an ocean away, I would offer my car for a back to back comparison.

Shrug. I guess it's a YMMV thing, but I didn't feel much difference in feedback between F and G series. Both felt numb. But I daily drive an E90 (hydraulic), so maybe all EPAS are gonna feel numb to me.