[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by IanH

Yes and you can drive a whole 16 miles utilizing that performance before you need to fully recharge.... lol

And it can only get full performance for 4 miles!

Um, most street scenarios are less than a mile or two. I can cruise to Vegas at 95mph with just a 30 minute stop in Baker for a snack/break that we were looking forward to anyways. I put 4000 miles in my car the other month. 99% of your performance needs are fulfilled with an EV. Average people don't even drive 50 miles (18k) per year. And if you need a track car, there are better alternatives to a street based BMW. On the other hand a 7:07 time for the 5000lb Taycan GTS beats any other factory stock BMW by a huge margin on the Nurburgring.

[SportySpice]

Damn, ya’ll like to bitch and moan. With all the Tesla owners calling their cars M3s, I say good for BMW for leaning into their brand equity and heritage. Anyone that knows enough about your precious M car to be impressed knows it’s different from the M Lite / Meh / M performance models so why are you so upset with marketing spin?

[BMWCCA1]

I always figured a true "///M" car was one on which BMW paid for the differential oil change at 1,200-miles.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Um, most street scenarios are less than a mile or two. I can cruise to Vegas at 95mph with just a 30 minute stop in Baker for a snack/break that we were looking forward to anyways. I put 4000 miles in my car the other month. 99% of your performance needs are fulfilled with an EV. Average people don't even drive 50 miles (18k) per year. And if you need a track car, there are better alternatives to a street based BMW. On the other hand a 7:07 time for the 5000lb Taycan GTS beats any other factory stock BMW by a huge margin on the Nurburgring.

Cool story bro, enjoy your golf cart. Sounds like a real hotrod!

It physically cannot go to the track for more than 1 lap, it's a commuter car (not that there's anything wrong with that)

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

You're looking at unique or bespoke parts as a differentiator while I'm talking about tuning and setup for a specific model from BMW's perspective or business model. Just because the B58 is used in a M340 and as well as a base X5 40i, doesn't make the M340i any less a "M Performance" model.

Maybe you guys have different build setups in the U.S. than Canada but if we take the G45 X3 for example, there is no "performance" options you can put on the X3 30 to build it identical to a X3 M50 making the latter a lot more different than the base. Even with the G02 X4 (which I would assume applies to the G01 X3) and the packages/options available for that generation, there is no option to add a sportier suspension on the 30i which I assume has a "base or passive sport suspension" vs. Adaptive M suspension on the M40i with the option of getting a M Sport differential.

I don't care how BMW uses the "BMW M" or "M" name, to me it's all just a trim level that provides "more" things over the trim below it in a certain class. But my point remains, and to the original post I was replying to where the it asks why "M Sport" in the past isn't considered the same as "M Performance" today, from the EXX to GXX, models, BMW is moving in a direction where they are positioning the M40i/M50/M60 trims to be different than the base models.

And just so everyone sees where I'm coming from and how I interpreted the original comment, when referring to a M Sport BMW, I'm thinking this is what they meant which is completely different than what we call M Performance BMW's today.

ZKJ M Sport Package
2MF 18" M Star Spoke Alloy Wheels - Style 193M Performance Run-Flat Tires: 225/40 R 18 & 255/35 R 18
337 M Sport Package: M Sport Steering Wheel, M Aerodynamic Package, M Shift Knob (Manual Only), M Footrest, High-gloss Shadow Line, Anthracite Roof Liner, Aluminum Glacier Silver Trim

you can yell about this all you want and have your opinion and i have mine... a true m car should have differentiation but it's been so watered down now that we ended up with automatics across the board, a 5500 lb M5, an awd m3 thats very isolated that no one knows what is and what isn't a bmw m anymore and bmw is squarely to blame... so pumping up an m340i for sales numbers surprises no one... i suppose you are right... one could argue an m340i is more of an m car than the new m5... its 1500 lbs lighter and doesn't have an ev motor attached to it...

on your 2nd question... yes we can option nearly the same way... an x3 30i can be had w m sport pack which gives you the m sport suspension and then you can add DCC, dynamic chassis control and m sport brakes as an option lol... so what the difference between an m50? oh yea, a more powerful engine and a limited slip diff which does nothing in a car like this (i have one so i know)

and i am sure were

[M2M3M3]

Originally Posted by NSXR

Actually, all BMW cars, save for the M1, were/are designed as street cars with varying levels of of sport/race-car bits added later for the sport/race minded.

The E30 M3 differs from a G80 M3 primarily because of the era in which it was produced. Cars were significantly lighter 40 years ago, and that's the real difference in the two cars.

Like you, I much prefer the older, lighter, more raw M cars to the new M cars, but that's a personal thing. It comes down to what you want from your M car; outright performance or feel.

Oh no. The E30 M3 differs because, while initially based on the E30 chassis, it was specifically redesigned to race. In order to be legall in the series, they had to make a certain number of street versions. It remains the winningest race car ever. G80 not even in the same league.

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by M2M3M3

The E30 M3 differs because, while initially based on the E30 chassis...

I mean, it is what it is, unless every E30 M3 was bespoke made from scratch.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Not that I agree or disagree with how or what gets classified as M but not apples/apples comparison. M Sport on the E9X and F3X for example were mainly aesthetically driven with the aero kit and wheels. Today, the M performance models are significantly different than the 30i models.

So it makes more sense to count M Perfomance today than M Sport in the past.

Not exactly.
10 years ago we had 328 and 335.
335 had bigger engine and more power/torque.
Today 328 is called 330, 335 is gone and instead we have “340” which is called M340. Is this real M? Well it’s the same 340 with cosmetic “M brake”, “M steering wheel” and bunch of M stickers around it plus some aero kits of old M package….
Day and night differences between M340 and M3!

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by Dgjo2022X5MC

How about this:

SXX engine powered cars are true M cars.

Does this test work? (Any M Performance vehicles with a SXX engine?).

SXX engines plus LSD plus high perfermance brakes/rotors plus M exhaust plus M suspension plus M gearbox with M gear ratios plus Merino leather plus gear lever … well no G90 is missing this one LOL…

[eman4517]

🍿🍿🍿🍿

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by Igor_M5

Sxx engines = true M, that became null when the 1M dropped w n54, followed by og M2

M Suspension = true M, hardly credible since G-gen. 🫤 Most rear ends on M cars are now fitted with (mainly) non-M arms & bushings, and don’t even get me started w/ Axles 😔

Tbh…

I think Drivelogic is the present thick white chalk line between real modern M and Meh models. For starters, M lite owners don’t even know what it is 😂

Fact: every M post-00’s is rooted around Drivelogic

Fact: LSD = M. MxDrive = M

If you really wanna get deep and factual, it’s with the inception of ZF, that set next narrative to evolve (aka dissolve) “Motorsport Insired” into what became a race to make one fit all cuz that = more profit, which = more bitches, and we all know bitches cause problems.

Ps, should I write a book ? 🫣

It also became null when the M2 launched with a modified B58.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

There are plenty of people who bought the I4 M50 when there were no subsidies. With a 3.3 sec 0-60mph time and yet smooth air susp ride with adaptive shocks, the i4 M50 is definitely not a down grade from a 340i. It also has shown equivalent or better stopping distances as an M3, pulls .91g and beat a M240i on a Korean road course. The i4 M50 is perfect for those of us that like to drive fast in silence without attracting law enforcement.

My i4 M50 has all the options and with the 20" wheels it will pull a full 1g on an on/off ramp with the sticky Pirellis.

It's lowered on Eibach springs with individual leather.

I actually cross shopped the i4 M50 against an M3 and came out with the i4. The only thing I didn't like is that in the European market it got M sport seats. I recently rectified that.

But BMW for what it's worth is getting good press for it's EV strategy.
BMW Is Crushing Its EV Sales In the U.S. https://www.topspeed.com/bmw-us-ev-s...e-doing-great/

The i4 and i5 M version or not are proper BMWs first that just happen to be electric.

The i4 M50 and i5 M60 are about as close as you will get to an M EV.

All I can say is don't knock it till you drive it.

[brianeck]

Such a stupid statistic. Of course the number is high, when you are county non full m cars. This is just like car companies reporting "there is no demand for manual cars." There is no Supply of manual cars, or they come watered down with better, more powerful automatic versions that can appeal to enthusiasts who just want the fastest car.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by IanH

Yes and you can drive a whole 16 miles utilizing that performance before you need to fully recharge.... lol

And it can only get full performance for 4 miles!

WTF are you talking about? Have you actually driven one or are you just spouting BS?

As someone that has owned multiple M cars, including an iconic E30 as a daily driver for a decade, you are so far off the mark it isn't even funny.

So are you claiming that I can only go 4 miles before the car starts losing power if driven hard? I can assure you that isn't the case after doing a high speed dance at 130mph with an F90 M5 Competition and a Bentley Continental.

Is the i4 a track car? Absolutely not, but you claiming I'm going to need to charge after driving it hard after 16 miles is the funniest load of crap I have heard in days. Or claiming that after 4 miles it's down on power.

Just say you don't like EVs and move on. Stop spouting BS

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by M2M3M3

M was for MotorSPORTS.

the last true M car was the E30 M3.

A Race car toned down for the street.

All M's since have been have been street cars with extra parts.

Actually no, it was a street car modified and hand built for the track. A street car with extra or replaced parts. The street E30 came first

They took E30 chassis and moved them to M assembly and beefed them up. The engine was the same engine from the M5/6 with cylinders 5 and 6 cut off.

The E30 is a prime example of parts bin reuse. The hubs came from a 5 series. Engine parts shared with an M5/6. Chassis shared with a 318/325.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

WTF are you talking about? Have you actually driven one or are you just spouting BS?

As someone that has owned multiple M cars, including an iconic E30 as a daily driver for a decade, you are so far off the mark it isn't even funny.

So are you claiming that I can only go 4 miles before the car starts losing power if driven hard? I can assure you that isn't the case after doing a high speed dance at 130mph with an F90 M5 Competition and a Bentley Continental.

Is the i4 a track car? Absolutely not, but you claiming I'm going to need to charge after driving it hard after 16 miles is the funniest load of crap I have heard in days. Or claiming that after 4 miles it's down on power.

Just say you don't like EVs and move on. Stop spouting BS

Car and Driver Lighting Lap

The i4 can more or less match an M3 in our regular acceleration and braking metrics, but a lap of VIR taxes the entire vehicle for three minutes, and the i4 showed signs of wilting. First, it won't make full power for a whole lap. An extremely cool out-lap helps, but while the i4 easily hummed along at its low, 128-mph top speed to start, at the finish line it only reached 116 mph, barely faster than the Carnival minivan. Furthermore, it restricted power until the steering wheel was pointed sufficiently straight, even with the stability control in its most lenient mode, hampering the car's ability to accelerate out of corners and then punching us back in the seat as we unwound the wheel. Each 4.1-mile hot lap consumed about 20 percent of the i4's state of charge and, as is typical for EVs, power drops off as the battery depletes, so it wasn't productive to do more than one fast lap before hooking it up for a couple-hour recharge.

I don't hate EVs but they are basically adolescent technology at this point. In 2 or so generations they will be a hell of a lot more compelling.

Can't even complete a full lap without losing power and top speed, trails the M340 on the same track/test by 1.5 seconds. 4.1 seconds slower than the M240 xDrive

Looking forward to seeing you do your usual moving goalposts and claiming you said something else though! truly the smartest person on the internet! I bet that they gave you a special i4 m50 that doesnt lose power when driven hard since they knew you deserved it and needed to race Bentley's.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by IanH

I don't hate EVs but they are basically infant technology at this point. In 2 or so generations they will be a hell of a lot more compelling.

Can't even complete a full lap without losing power and top speed, trails the M340 on the same track/test by 1.5 seconds.

It's not a track car!!
No body said it was.
So you come here with a specious argument about it can't do hot laps. But it's not designed as a track car.

You also left this part out:
Although it's nowhere near the M4's lap, the i4 hangs through corners with the M340i we tested here in 2021 and trails it by a mere 1.5 seconds in overall lap time, despite the gas-powered 3-series' dramatic speed advantage. The i4's brake pedal stayed firm during three days of lapping, more so than the M240i's, despite shedding more energy. The chassis is trusty, with no surprises, making it easy to acclimate to, and the car doesn't feel as massive as its nearly full-size-pickup curb weight might suggest.

EVs still have a long way to go to prove themselves on track, but the i4 is a step in the right direction, especially considering it's less than half the price of that Taycan

So it's not compelling for "you".
I get that, but stop trying to spin a narrative that it's a crap car

EVs are not "infant tech" as you would say. Battery tech, needs improvement. It has nothing to do with what you can do with an electric motor.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It's not a track car!!
No body said it was.
So you come here with a specious argument about it can't do hot laps. But it's not designed as a track car.

You also left this part out:
Although it's nowhere near the M4's lap, the i4 hangs through corners with the M340i we tested here in 2021 and trails it by a mere 1.5 seconds in overall lap time, despite the gas-powered 3-series' dramatic speed advantage. The i4's brake pedal stayed firm during three days of lapping, more so than the M240i's, despite shedding more energy. The chassis is trusty, with no surprises, making it easy to acclimate to, and the car doesn't feel as massive as its nearly full-size-pickup curb weight might suggest.

EVs still have a long way to go to prove themselves on track, but the i4 is a step in the right direction, especially considering it's less than half the price of that Taycan

So it's not compelling for "you".
I get that, but stop trying to spin a narrative that it's a crap car

EVs are not "infant tech" as you would say. Battery tech, needs improvement. It has nothing to do with what you can do with an electric motor.

Ayy there it is, moving the goal posts and not understanding the original statement! do you read the posts you respond to?

Yes and you can drive a whole 16 miles utilizing that performance before you need to fully recharge.... lol

And it can only get full performance for 4 miles!

Factually accurate

It physically cannot go to the track for more than 1 lap, it's a commuter car (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Also correct.

This thread is about M cars, and people are discussing whether M-lites are M cars.

The "i4 M50" is not an "M car", factually accurate.

Glad that you got the only one in the world that can do more than 16 miles at full blast before needing hours of charging. So blessed and lucky.

[IanH]

Here's a fun post that I can add to this fiesta.

OBVIOUSLY the G87 M2 sets the real M car bar. I put in some often discussed competitors for points of reference.

Everyone can take solace in the fact that EVERY BMW TESTED is faster than a 2018 BRZ

2023 BMW M4 CSL, 2:47.5
2022 BMW M5 CS, 2:50.3
2022 Audi RS3, 2:52.5 (On Trofeo R tires)
2016 BMW M4 GTS, 2:52.9
2022 BMW M3 Competition xDrive, 2:53.5
2019 BMW M5 Competition, 2:54.0
2018 BMW M5, 2:55.2
2020 BMW M8 Competition, 2:55.5
2022 Cadillac CT4-V Blackwing, 2:55.6
2023 BMW M2, 2:56.9
=========== REAL M CAR BAR============
2024 BMW X5 M Competition, 2:58.1
2017 Porsche 718 Cayman S, 2:58.3
2021 Toyota Supra 3.0 Premium, 2:59.3
2019 BMW M2 Competition, 2:59.7
2021 BMW X5M Competition, 3:00.5
2022 BMW M240i xDrive, 3:00.6
2015 BMW M4, 3:00.7
2016 BMW M2, 3:01.9
2022 BMW X4M Competition, 3:02.9
2020 BMW M340i, 3:03.2
2017 BMW Alpina B7 xDrive, 3:04.3
2013 BMW M6, 3:04.7
2022 BMW i4 M50, 3:04.7
2009 BMW M3 coupe, 3:05.4
2011 BMW 1-series M, 3:06.6
2014 BMW M235i, 3:07.2
2017 BMW M240i, 3:08.0
2006 BMW M6, 3:10.0
2012 BMW Z4 sDrive35is, 3:10.4
2007 BMW 335i coupe, 3:10.5
2012 BMW X5 M, 3:11.1
2012 BMW 335i Sport Line, 3:13.2
2008 BMW 135i, 3:13.7
2012 BMW 335is, 3:13.8
2018 Subaru BRZ tS, 3:14.0

Interesting to see how slow the 335 is compared to its contemporary M Car, dropping 13 seconds

The G42 M240 only drops 4 seconds to the G87

I think the modern M-Lites have show here that they are closing the gap compared to the modern M's - a lot of people might say thats because of a dilution of the new M cars and boost of the M-lites at the same time.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by marseille82

Driving a BMW (M or not) doesn’t make anyone elite. They need to flex the private islands and jets to maybe be elitists.

Neah, these days you need to own your own Cult of rabid followers to qualify as an "elitist".
Islands and jets are so 20th century...

Originally Posted by G80indy

M as in Marketing segment of their assortment

Indeed.
Nothing new here.
///M has been for Marketing since mid-90s, at least.

M-Performance is just the latest evolution, and replacement for "s" and "is" badge postfixes of the past.

F sport, AMG Line, S-line, M Performance, M Sport - just highly profitable label pimping (excuse me, engineering)!

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by IanH

Also correct.

This thread is about M cars, and people are discussing whether M-lites are M cars.

The "i4 M50" is not an "M car", factually accurate.

Glad that you got the only one in the world that can do more than 16 miles at full blast before needing hours of charging. So blessed and lucky.

You moved the goal post and inserted "track statistics" into the argument. The argument was what makes an M car an M car? It's not necessarily track, because only a small fraction of M owners track their cars. I have an M2 on order for the track.

The i4 M50 doesn't fit M-Lite or M to be factually accurate. It is the only M-Lite or non-M with an M landing page.
https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/m-se...technical-data

They also put the electrified M models on the same page with the XM andttps://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/m-power-electrified.html G90 M5.

The i4 M50 has a drivetrain that isn't used in another variant of i4 or any other EV (bespoke motors). The i4 M50 has bespoke suspension unique in the i4 M50. You can get options on the M50 that you can't get on any other i4 or 4GC. You can get full merino leather. It's been marketed as the first ever EV tuned by the Motorsports Division. While they don't call it an M it has bespoke parts that separate it from a traditional M-Lite.

So while it's factually true that it's not M, it smokes any M-Light variant and most M3/4 on the streets; 544hp and almost 600lb-ft of torque.

But sure, by most definitions it's not an M.

[WWM3]

I think lumping them all together makes sense, given BMW's marketing and design decisions. There's less differentiation than ever before between the M cars and their M "lite"/M sport counterparts.