[Squidget]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

I never thought I would use the ignore feature, until G87 came out.

I didn't know the forums had this feature. Time to do some work!

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I can argue it because I work on this kind of stuff.

Your link says, and I quote, "A handful of touch controls and a touchscreen can also be cheaper and easier to implement." Emphasis mine. That language is wishy-washy because it's not actually true. it's a journo puff piece.

Let's get into some actual trade literature, shall we?

https://www.eetimes.com/projections-...for-carmakers/

One theme you'll see throughout is this: "The software R&D cost to create these products is estimated to be in the range of 15% in 2020 and growing to 35% in 2030 as a share of total system R&D budget."

That's a huge percentage of the whole R&D budget purely to write code. You aren't saving money here.

Another eye popping note is the BoM, AKA the cost of licensing 3rd party code. That licensing alone (hundreds of dollars per vehicle) wipes out any gains from getting rid of some cheap plastic switches.

Let's not forget the hardware that runs the SW. The article estimates that costs $4K-9K per car. How much do you think BMW saved by getting rid of a few dials? 40 bucks?

There are other articles in the EE and ACM, but they all say basically the same thing. This shit is expensive.

Welcome to my world, where every freakin project costs more than anyone believes. Even a modest SW department has a budget measured in tens of millions of dollars a year. Hardware teams are worse! Engineers are expensive.

It's generally a myth that software makes things cheaper. SW makes things more CAPABLE, which is why it "eats" everything. But not actually cheaper, on a 1:1 feature basis.

For well over a decade, touch screens have spread like a rash across dashboards. As with other dangerous trends in car design (see the steering yoke), this one can be traced back to Tesla, which has for years positioned its vehicles as “tablets on wheels.” As a result, touch screens were seen as representing tech-infused modernity. But cost has been a factor, too. “These screens are presented as this avant garde, minimalist design,” said Matt Farah, a car reviewer and host of The Smoking Tire, an auto-focused YouTube channel and podcast. “But really, it’s the cheapest way possible of building an interior.” Although they look fancy, Farah said that carmakers can purchase screens for less than $50, making them significantly less expensive than tactile controls.

https://slate.com/business/2023/04/c...n-hyundai.html

It’s no secret that digital screens cost far less to integrate into vehicles than it does to design a new three-dimensional analog cluster of gauges. Automakers have been finding clever ways of cost-cutting projects for many years, but usually in ways that don’t directly affect the user experience...In fact, as newer generations of vehicles are revealed, many are heading in a similar generic direction. Even automotive icons that are performance-oriented aren’t even safe, like the new Ford Mustang or BMW M2, both of which utilize rectangular infotainment/clusters that have seemingly been slapped onto the dashboard with little to no design/integration. Both vehicles have also incorporated crunchy haptic feedback multi-buttons that use the same surface but operate different functions. A strange experience to use in person and increasingly cheap feeling, the trend of interior cheapening continues.

https://www.topspeed.com/how-digital...car-interiors/

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by pizza240

I don't like Throttle House, I didn't watch the video and I don't care to; but I must say, having had a 981 GT4 and a 718 Spyder alongside a F87 M2C, I can't disagree with someone arguing that the Cayman GTS is overrated (because most Porsches are). M2C was always the go to. More fun, more space, felt faster on the road, etc.

Having had a 718 and many 911s I have to agree here, the M2C was the go to car for everyday fun (not to mention bang for the buck). Sure the p-cars would outshine on a track but on the street...

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Sour grapes taste good, but they’ll never know.

I just came back from a quick midnight run with my G87. Frankly, this car is such a comprehensive upgrade over the F87 and a comprehensively great package in general that it makes these debates ridiculous.

An S58-powered wide body coupe with carbon roof, factory option bucket seats, HUD, latest infotainment with non-gimped screen size, excellent handling, 6MT option, 10-stage TC, adaptive suspension, proven 10/10ths track performance, and a price that manages to be cheaper than the previous car when adjusted for "typical" inflation - this is an obviously great proposition. To the media's credit, almost all of them agree with this assessment. Fortunately for BMW M and all the product folks who worked hard to deliver, much of their work can be objectively measured and quantified.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

For the record, and for once, I agree with you.

Screen based interfaces are cheaper since they can handle option differences in software and this it's a one-size-fits all solution for the whole model range. In addition updates can be rolled out with way less cost if the only thing that's changed is the software.

Having used the new guage cluster in an i4 briefly I will disagree on it being a terrible experience, even if I would prefer physical buttons.

I appreciate the honesty. At this point people are going to lie and dig in because they don't like what I have to say.

[Karmic Man]

Big infotainment screens in cars won’t last – BMW boss predicts safety backlash

https://www.drive.com.au/news/bmw-bo...h-big-screens/

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Big infotainment screens in cars won’t last – BMW boss predicts safety backlash

https://www.drive.com.au/news/bmw-bo...h-big-screens/

Pretty sure I said they were less safe a few posts back and was met with angry backlash because a guy used to solder chips to a board, so he knows better.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Big infotainment screens in cars won’t last – BMW boss predicts safety backlash

https://www.drive.com.au/news/bmw-bo...h-big-screens/

He's likely referring to the large screens seen in cars like various Teslas and Mercedes EQx line. Those screens are large vertically, which do take your eyes off the road.

BMW's super-wide curved display implementation is excellent for safety. I personally have almost never had to look down or away from the road. The entire screen is always within the view of the road. I realized this after a couple of weeks of living with it. It's brilliant.

[Ctothej]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Pretty sure I said they were less safe a few posts back and was met with angry backlash because a guy used to solder chips to a board, so he knows better.

Lose the performance debate, bring up cost of digital vs analog. Lose that, and move over to safety. What next? Surely there's no point to this anymore... Live your life, drive the car you want, and let's just move on.

Loads of happy owners of the G87 here, and that's really all that matters. ALL THAT MATTERS. The rest is irrelevant.

[Chet for short]

Seems th TH guys vids bring out the worst in us.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by Chet for short

Seems th TH guys vids bring out the worst in us.

Funny thing is this one is quite positive for the G87. Both its excellent straight line and track performance were validated once again.

If you look through the thread, it appears to have been the G87 detractors' turn to throw a fit.

[LCDRJohn]

The genius thing about Throttle house is that they go against the grain,stir folks up a little, get 1 million+ Clicks&views, deposit that huge check, and then slowly soften their criticisms over time.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Funny thing is this one is quite positive for the G87. Both its excellent straight line and track performance were validated once again.

If you look through the thread, it appears to have been the G87 detractors' turn to throw a fit.

As a 1M owner and F87 OG and F87C I can tell you that some previous gen owners have a hard time appreciating the advancements of the next gen. Happens to all brands (I've been through it with Porsche and Audi) but some (like myself) are always looking to have the opportunity to improve.

I will test drive a G87 at some point and decide from there...

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Ctothej

Lose the performance debate, bring up cost of digital vs analog. Lose that, and move over to safety. What next? Surely there's no point to this anymore... Live your life, drive the car you want, and let's just move on.

Loads of happy owners of the G87 here, and that's really all that matters. ALL THAT MATTERS. The rest is irrelevant.

I lost?
The only losers here are people upset at other people's opinions. But no, I brought up the interior as a sore spot a while ago, and I was objectively correct, just like I was correct on the weight issue and how the M2 (unlike the M3) is not on par with Porsche's GT model - the 911.

[Ctothej]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I lost?
The only losers here are people upset at other people's opinions. But no, I brought up the interior as a sore spot a while ago, and I was objectively correct, just like I was correct on the weight issue and how the M2 (unlike the M3) is not on par with Porsche's GT model - the 911.

No, you were objectively incorrect, and the rest is, at best, your opinion. As I said, G87 owners here love their cars and that's all that matters. You don't like the car, that is your opinion and you are entitled to one, but the numbers speak for themselves - and I repeat, G87 owners here love their cars. End of.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Ctothej

No, you were objectively incorrect, and the rest is, at best, your opinion. As I said, G87 owners here love their cars and that's all that matters. You don't like the car, that is your opinion and you are entitled to one, but the numbers speak for themselves - and I repeat, G87 owners here love their cars. End of.

Incorrect on what? The E46 weight? It’s ability to be a bargain 911? The dangers of screens, and how cheap they are to build?

If you like the car, that’s fine, I lose no sleep over it. Remember, you’re engaging me, not the other way around.

Originally Posted by m2ss

As a 1M owner and F87 OG and F87C I can tell you that some previous gen owners have a hard time appreciating the advancements of the next gen. Happens to all brands (I've been through it with Porsche and Audi) but some (like myself) are always looking to have the opportunity to improve.

I will test drive a G87 at some point and decide from there...

Mmm, I’m going to disagree. There is a front page post about the M3 CSL (E46) where it was pointed out that it laid the basis for the subsequent cars, including CF roofs and all sorts of appearance accessories.

https://g87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...0#post30181870

The point was made that the car attracted a specific buyer, and the newer cars are more divorced from the original philosophy.
People would LOVE an updated E46M with modern features, but that’s not what this car is, and it’s ok to admit that.

[Bobdaxx]

g87 is awesome to look at in person...I saw one up close in potomac at the brooklyn deli. MT black...Looked awesome. My OG is paid off and I could get some serious coin for it in a trade but I have to show some restraint. But If I were reckless, Id find a way to get over the awful dash because I could get an S58 with a manual, awesome seats and a HUD. Its a great car all around and Im envious of you new owners with the new toy on the block.

[MMMGuy60]

The G87 will be a huge success just like the G80 M3/M4. The haters here does not represent what the general public wants. The public has spoken and they want new and bold styling not the same old same old as the last 20 yrs. I know it's hard for previous owners to accept and embrace changes but it's about time. Manual and ICE is coming to an end.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by MMMGuy60

The G87 will be a huge success just like the G80 M3/M4. The haters here does not represent what the general public wants. The public has spoken and they want new and bold styling not the same old same old as the last 20 yrs. I know it's hard for previous owners to accept and embrace changes but it's about time. Manual and ICE is coming to an end.

The majority of the public doesn't want an EV or a Tesla, so I'm not sure who you're speaking for here.

[MMMGuy60]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

The majority of the public doesn't want an EV or a Tesla, so I'm not sure who you're speaking for here.

The best selling car in the world currently is the Tesla Model Y. How is the public don't want a Tesla/EV?????? Hater like you will never admit you are wrong. Go back to your old M235i and drive far away from this G87 forum. Blocking you, no point in dealing with haters.

[EXE46]

For the love of all things holy, please use the ignore feature under your account profile and block the troll. This way you do not have to read his posts. Even an infant can see this guy is just here to stir up controversy.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by Squidget

But this part sounds like bullshit. Every major performance part on the car is superior to the F87. The interior quality is FAR better. The tech is better. While you may not like the tech, it is more expensive than old analog gauges. What corners are being cut, exactly?

The dealer that I placed my G87 order with had (still has) a 2021 M2 Comp (same color that I ordered the G87), with 15K miles on the lot.

I took it for a test drive, thinking of buying it while I waited for my G87 to show up.

Having driven the G87, driving the F87 Comp felt like a total letdown. No disrespect to the F87 - great vehicle, specially in Comp/CS form. But once you experience the new model it is hard to be excited about the old one.

The only advantage the F87 has is more rear headroom. And this is headroom only. Other than that the G87 rear seating area is better. I'm 6'0" and I sat behind myself on both cars. No issues with legroom but I had to crank my head a bit on the G87 and not on the F87. I could easily do local trips in the back, and all the likely occupants of those seats are smaller than me in my household. So not an issue.

Everything else, the G87 feels a full class up in performance and interior appointments. And looks. Those broad wheel arches are it. It is insane how sporty the G87 looks vs how plain the F87 looks. F87 was "lost" in the dealer parking lot. G87 was "wow, you have to look at it - impossible to ignore".