07-09-2023, 01:46 AM | #45 |
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You snark, but it's a good point. If a person over-focuses on weight to the exclusion of everything else, they can miss a good thing. The G87 is a significant leap forward.
The base G87 solidly dusts the base F87 on every axis (performance, comfort, materials quality, interior space, tech, tunability). Everything except weight. A fair trade IMO. Now that I've driven it, I can also say the G87 beats the F87 on steering precision and shifter feel. So it's got some wins over the F87 in terms of driving pleasure, it's not just performance wins. And ooh boy is it a better daily driver. ALSO, the G87 seems to be meeting or beating the F87C on every axis except weight. A bonus! ALSO ALSO, the G87 seems be to uncomfortably close to the F87CS. Jury is still out IMO, but the fact it's even possible is scary. And the G87 has armrests and other comforts. I'm not ragging on the F87 here. I'm just saying that sometimes you get a better car by adding things to it. Weight isn't everything. Porsches have been gaining weight steadily for years, somehow they are doing OK. Also Lotus. And, well, everyone else. |
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07-09-2023, 01:55 AM | #46 | |
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07-09-2023, 02:13 AM | #47 | |
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But, the F87 chassis tended to have traction issues in the rear, so putting more power back there isn't automatically better. They'd have to sort that out, but I don't see why they couldn't manage it. |
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07-09-2023, 02:15 AM | #48 |
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At worst, they'd detune it a little
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07-09-2023, 04:10 AM | #49 |
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It’s not how fast you go
But how well you go fast…💨
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07-09-2023, 04:14 AM | #50 |
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That's prophetic
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07-09-2023, 04:31 AM | #51 |
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Hilarious ❕
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07-09-2023, 11:28 AM | #52 |
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I'm assuming this is sarcasm about the weight. We need like a font or something because half the time it's damn near impossible to tell.
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07-09-2023, 11:47 AM | #53 |
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Not sarcasm. It’s power is very impressive, but it’s power to weight is really the cars achilles heel. Looking at the IND dyno’s it’s over 460hp at the wheels and well over 500 at the crank. A stripped out track special like Jackie Ding is building that gets closer to 3500lbs will be a real weapon.
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07-09-2023, 11:50 AM | #54 | |
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When it comes to sports cars, I care a lot about mass and I did write off the original F87 for being too heavy to take seriously. Part of it is that I really liked the BMW 135i and it is one of the cars that I missed out on. I almost bought one in 2011, but my wife and I were just getting "real jobs" and it seemed like too much financial risk at the moment. When the new 2-series came out, it seemed like a hopeless watering down of the 1-series' quirkiness. The proportions were still goofy, but just normalized enough to look off to me. And the subsequent M2 had numb steering and a couple of hundred pounds more curb weight more than the 135i for a marginal gain in performance. It struck me as a bad value. But people seemed to like the OG M2, so I drove one and was rather underwhelmed. The N55's power band seemed truckish to me and the interior was not as nice as my then fairly new 340i with the first B58. My 340i had a much better engine (imho), nicer interior, more daily livable, and more features. It wasn't worth the money to gain the improvements in backroad performance in exchange for losing ground in these other significant areas. Then the M2C was announced and I was interested again. The new M2C also gained another couple of hundred pounds, but since it was becoming the norm I put it behind me and drove the car. Like before, it just didn't seem to be enough change from my 340i for the money. Plus, the M2C gained 4+% more curb weight for just a new engine and associated cooling. The G87 is about 5+% heavier than the M2C, but it gains a new engine, bigger contact patches, adaptive suspension, an all new platform, and E-diff; a lot more stuff relative to the added weight! Plus, those features help to offset the effect of the added weight, while the M2C didn't see the same degree of improvement to offset its own weight gain. So for what you get in the F87 M2 (or M2C), it is too heavy imho. And prior M2 owners complaining about weight is the pot calling the kettle black. -Nick PS - my weights came from C&D tests for the different M2 variants with manual transmissions (yes, the good M2s ). Choosing a single source for consistency in technique and knowing that C&D actually weighs the cars they test. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-drive-review/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...l-test-review/ |
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07-09-2023, 12:27 PM | #55 | |
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Besides, I'm not chasing seconds on the track, it's a blast on there but its not like this is a stripped out race car nor do I get big cash prizes for going around faster than someone else. Basically, the car is capable as F_(× out there and is a step up drastically from any F series car.
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07-09-2023, 12:33 PM | #56 |
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Yeah. the F87 series was a weird run. Stuff like the seat position, and putting the N55 into a supposed M car. Less aggressive styling. Problems with rear traction. You'd never see such things in the M3/M4 cars.
The Comp fixed some stuff, but IMO it felt like the CS was when BMW said "ok, let's START thinking about making this a real M car now." And with the G87, the M2 now feels dead serious. Legitimate. A real M car with no exceptions, every bit as competent and powerful as its siblings. Extremely similar to the M3/M4 in almost every way, especially attitude. Which is mostly a good thing, IMO. But it's a bad thing if you don't like the "seriousness" of G87x. G87 has lost some whimsy, some liveliness in the rear. It's also aggressive as hell, and some people don't like that. |
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07-09-2023, 12:40 PM | #57 | |
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Unlike the F87, I don't think the G87 CS will need more structural bracing. They pre-emptively did that already in the G87. Ditto larger brakes and tires. So it's possible that the weight actually goes down this time for the CS. Probably not all the way down to 3500, though. |
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07-09-2023, 01:11 PM | #58 | |
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07-10-2023, 07:16 AM | #59 | |
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There is a dude near me that got his Zandvoort Blue M2 around the same time I got my car. That thing is NAAASTY! I even love the color and I didn't think I would when I saw it in pictures. The M2 is very aggressive and has serious street presence. I love it! |
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07-10-2023, 11:55 AM | #60 | |
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just depends what you want. i would have rather had bmw up the S58 displacement to between 3.5 or 4.0 and kept the turbo size down.
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07-10-2023, 12:08 PM | #61 | |
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07-10-2023, 12:21 PM | #62 | |
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Last edited by fcman; 07-10-2023 at 12:33 PM.. |
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07-10-2023, 02:35 PM | #63 | |
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Apart from purely mechanical differences, they are two conceptually different engines. Small turbochargers and high compression ratio for the S55, large turbochargers and low compression ratio for the S58. With larger turbochargers, the S55 does not become an S58, but just an engine with a high risk of detonation. Hence the huge difference in tuning potential. The S58 does not have more lag than the S58, it only has a higher boost threshold (for the aforementioned reasons). |
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07-10-2023, 02:44 PM | #64 | |
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07-10-2023, 03:02 PM | #65 | ||
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i agree the S58 has higher boost threshold and lower compression. But there is definitely more lag. a larger turbo takes longer to spool. and a heavier car is harder to move than a lighter one given the same displacement engine. from https://bmwtuning.co/s55-vs-s58/ Quote:
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07-10-2023, 03:22 PM | #66 | |
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