[fanofbmwe46]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

Just want to add one thing from the perspective of Autocrossers who want to use the manual tranny.

Second gear needs to go to at least 70 on most cars, and some, like a GT3 or Vette, may need second to go to 75MPH or more.

This often means that the 1-2 ratio sweep may be a little off, but anyone who has autocrossed and watched a WRX bounce off it's rev limiter for half a course, understands! LOL!

I'm still glad i got my Emira deposit back. I've only had one friend get his, and it is a disaster. I am giving him until the end of the year to ask for his $$ back from Lotus.

Why what’s wrong with it?

[LCDRJohn]

Originally Posted by fanofbmwe46

Why what’s wrong with it?

Do you mean what is wrong with autocrossers?? (I could fill a book, lol!)

or

What makes the Emira a hot-mess?

Try to picture all of the folk-lore horrors of british cars, baked into one shell and you will get the idea. I put my deposit in 3 years ago, and noticed a Loooonng delay in getting US cars. Turns out that the QA was so bad that they were holding them back from our market. When the first brits got their cars, they tried to drink as much Kool-aid as was available, but did not work. Head over to the Emira forum to get the whole scoop. Ignore the guys who swear their cars are perfect. There are 3 of them and they are chumps (every board has them). For the rest, it is like a scaled down Mclaren: Paint drips, water leaks, bad seals, broken seats,bad trannys, and electrical/computer issues that stop the heart. The latest one, which is gaining traction, is that they do not produce the HP/TQ they are supposed to. I think we just saw that in the vid, where the car with the best power/weight (Emira) lost handily. In a street-start, it would have been even worse.

So, when I read that, I had a PTSD-like flashback to my Mclaren, and immediately got my $5k back. Judging by how the dealer was begging me not to take my money back, I think it is happening a lot now. It's a shame, really. I want so badly to want this car.

I'll wait until mid-cycle on the car, and may jump back in. I love Lotus, and just wish they would stop being so arrogant. Porsche can do it, because they deliver the product. Lotus, not so much.

[M2Cmtl]

Originally Posted by chris719

It’s older than that. It’s from the 1M. I also don’t think it has anything to do with gearing. I think there is a boost / torque limit in 1st and 2nd. I think S55 M2C has this also. It’s hard to spin on that car vs N55 M2.

The issue with the M2C F87 in 1-2 was traction. 3rd gear you could finally put all the power down and that's why it felt "unrestricted" in 3rd. The G87 really seems to solve the traction issue to get some good 0-60 times. Not saying the tq wasn't limited in 1-2.

[AZG87]

Originally Posted by Mr.blue

Wow! I knew the M2 was a quick little car but damn! I didn’t think it would perform that well against the Mustang.

Coming from a modded Mustang putting down much more power, I will say the refined power delivery of the G87 is great. Combined with the lighter curb weight, smaller footprint and much better interior I'd consider the trade up to the M2 to be more than worth it.

[kamendex]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

It's not. If we're talking apples to apples, or in this case auto to auto, the G87 runs 3.5 0-60, and 11.7 @122 mph. So no, the two cars aren't even close in a straight line.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-bmw-m2-drive/

Not even close? Car and driver has the m240i at 3.6…how can the m2 with all its improvements run .1 second faster? Either the b58 is amazing or the m2 isn’t…


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38679729/2022-bmw-m240i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by kamendex

Not even close? Car and driver has the m240i at 3.6…how can the m2 with all its improvements run .1 second faster? Either the b58 is amazing or the m2 isn’t…


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

First off, that fast time for the G42 M240 is an xdrive. Second, the M240 is a tad lighter and tuned for the torque to be applied at lower rpms (G87 is obviouslyRWD and the torque doesnt kick in till higher gear/rpms). Now, if running the 1/4 (or even 1/8) mile, the M2s power will quickly overtake it.

I have both a rwd M240 and G87 (and have drag raced many times in my life on the track at Gainesville Raceway so I do have a clue)...speaking from the rwd M240...the G87 will beat (even smoke) it from start to finish.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by kamendex

Not even close? Car and driver has the m240i at 3.6…how can the m2 with all its improvements run .1 second faster? Either the b58 is amazing or the m2 isn’t…


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38679729/2022-bmw-m240i-xdrive-by-the-numbers/

Correct, not even remotely close. The 240 is half a second and 8 mph behind the M2 at the end of the quarter mile. That's about 5 car lengths. Different leagues.

[10"]

Originally Posted by Tag

It's a carryover from the F87; gearing is from the S55 and not matched to the S58. Hence, pulls like a hell from 3rd and on. Sad really, imagine what this car could do if they actually developed a MT for it.

The F87 gearbox was a carryover from the F80/F82 gearbox which was derived from the 1M/Z4 gearbox.

It’s super smooth on my 1M—it felt good on the F87s I’ve driven. Never driven a G87.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by M2Cmtl

The issue with the M2C F87 in 1-2 was traction. 3rd gear you could finally put all the power down and that's why it felt "unrestricted" in 3rd. The G87 really seems to solve the traction issue to get some good 0-60 times. Not saying the tq wasn't limited in 1-2.

I own one; there is something else going on IMO.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I think TH mentioned the shift linkage was updated by Toyota when they co-engineered the Supra's 6MT. Perhaps it explains why the shift feel is reported to be better with G87.

It's a different gearbox also. It's a newer, higher torque-handling variant of the Z4 2.0 6MT. It's ZF GS6-L50TZ whereas M2/M3/M4 use GS6-45BZ.

[SpencerC_6MT]

Originally Posted by chris719

It's a different gearbox also. It's a newer, higher torque-handling variant of the Z4 2.0 6MT. It's ZF GS6-L50TZ whereas M2/M3/M4 use GS6-45BZ.

I believe the "different gearbox" idea is a little deceptive. It uses the exact same ratios as the GS6-45BZ, leading me to believe it has the exact same gearset as the older B58 6MT and S58 6MT cars. The new name comes from the fact that the B58TU has a different location for the starter motor. Since the B58TU never had a manual option, but the B48TU did, it seems to me that Toyota used the bellhousing from the GS6-40LZ (B48TU manual) and bolted it to the S6-45 guts. Slap on the Z4 20i shifter, make the linkages work with the new gearset, put in some stiffer bushings to make it feel more Toyota-y, and there you've got the Supra manual.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by SpencerC_6MT

I believe the "different gearbox" idea is a little deceptive. It uses the exact same ratios as the GS6-45BZ, leading me to believe it has the exact same gearset as the older B58 6MT and S58 6MT cars. The new name comes from the fact that the B58TU has a different location for the starter motor. Since the B58TU never had a manual option, but the B48TU did, it seems to me that Toyota used the bellhousing from the GS6-40LZ (B48TU manual) and bolted it to the S6-45 guts. Slap on the Z4 20i shifter, make the linkages work with the new gearset, put in some stiffer bushings to make it feel more Toyota-y, and there you've got the Supra manual.

Well, it's a different gearbox. Has a different part number. Other than that it's all speculation. It's also a "50" not a 45 or a 40 and typically this number in BMW ZF gearboxes indicates higher max torque. People claim this gearbox can be rushed 1st to 2nd. None of the BMW ZF gearboxes can, and it's not a linkage issue. I have driven a F8x with CAE shifter and other rifle-bolt SSKs. It's possible there are tweaks to the synchros etc that we do not know about.

[SpencerC_6MT]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Other than the shift linkage feel (which is now OK as opposed to sub-par in the F87), the ratios are perfect for the S58 in the M2, evenly spaced and top gear is above the power peak at maximum speed. If anything it is better matched to the S58 than the N55/S55, no reason to change it that I can see.

Personally, I have to disagree. Maybe they're perfect for 10/10th's driving, but I'm disappointed by the lack of overdrive. This may ring a little hollow considering I put 3.46 gears in my M240i (same as the M2 but much smaller tire), but even stock I found the revs pretty high while cruising. I personally would've loved to see a longer 1st gear (say ~3.7:1) and longer 6th gear (~0.78:1), as well as 3rd and 4th a bit shorter. But BMW has followed this pattern with gearing for a long time, they like to keep em tight up top for Autobahn performance.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by SpencerC_6MT

Personally, I have to disagree. Maybe they're perfect for 10/10th's driving, but I'm disappointed by the lack of overdrive. This may ring a little hollow considering I put 3.46 gears in my M240i (same as the M2 but much smaller tire), but even stock I found the revs pretty high while cruising. I personally would've loved to see a longer 1st gear (say ~3.7:1) and longer 6th gear (~0.78:1), as well as 3rd and 4th a bit shorter. But BMW has followed this pattern with gearing for a long time, they like to keep em tight up top for Autobahn performance.

Every manual M car since the E92 M3 needs a 7th overdrive gear.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by SpencerC_6MT

Personally, I have to disagree. Maybe they're perfect for 10/10th's driving, but I'm disappointed by the lack of overdrive. This may ring a little hollow considering I put 3.46 gears in my M240i (same as the M2 but much smaller tire), but even stock I found the revs pretty high while cruising. I personally would've loved to see a longer 1st gear (say ~3.7:1) and longer 6th gear (~0.78:1), as well as 3rd and 4th a bit shorter. But BMW has followed this pattern with gearing for a long time, they like to keep em tight up top for Autobahn performance.

That gearing change would remove a significant amount of sportiness from the car and much of the reason to buy a 6-speed M-car to begin with.

[SpencerC_6MT]

Originally Posted by aerobod

That gearing change would remove a significant amount of sportiness from the car and much of the reason to buy a 6-speed M-car to begin with.

Just a matter of preference, I suppose. 110mph in 3rd and 150 in 4th is way too tall for my preference, which is why I made the compromise to go from 3.08 to 3.46 in my car. I feel it would considerably improve the driving experience to tighten up the 2-4 ratios, keep 5th 1:1, and slightly lengthen out 6th for the highway. Or better yet, Just shorten the whole lot and add a 7th in for a real overdrive drop. But we're talking about the last generation of manual BMW's anyways, I'm content being thankful that it's an option at all.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by SpencerC_6MT

Just a matter of preference, I suppose. 110mph in 3rd and 150 in 4th is way too tall for my preference, which is why I made the compromise to go from 3.08 to 3.46 in my car. I feel it would considerably improve the driving experience to tighten up the 2-4 ratios, keep 5th 1:1, and slightly lengthen out 6th for the highway. Or better yet, Just shorten the whole lot and add a 7th in for a real overdrive drop. But we're talking about the last generation of manual BMW's anyways, I'm content being thankful that it's an option at all.

7th is the only real option (not viable for a new transmission due to limited volumes, of course) without destroying the even gear spacing and also having a suitable 1st gear ratio along with 6th gear to reach the maximum speed the car is capable of. Uneven gear ratios would make rev matching downshifts frustrating and introduce gaps in the acceleration capabilities, something that would detract a lot from the driving experience and possibly push many who want a sporting drive away from the manual, causing BMW to stop producing it.

[ScottyK329]

Would love to see a race using the 8sp auto version. Quite sure it's quicker.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Uneven gear ratios would make rev matching downshifts frustrating and introduce gaps in the acceleration capabilities, something that would detract a lot from the driving experience and possibly push many who want a sporting drive away from the manual, causing BMW to stop producing it.

Yes, it would absolutely be market suicide. <rant> For fucks sake, lots of people don't even understand what tuning a motor high even means, or why it's a good thing. People barely understand gearing, or the difference between turbo lag and turbo threshold. </rant>

Uneven gears would be a real barrier for casual drivers, and those are the people you need to reach. The super hardcore are already rolling MTs, BMW isn't gonna worry about them. For MT to be a going concern, it's gotta reach at least a few of the more casual drivers.

Which is why every sane automaker provides rev-matching and launch control, of course.

[NotSharocks]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I think TH mentioned the shift linkage was updated by Toyota when they co-engineered the Supra's 6MT. Perhaps it explains why the shift feel is reported to be better with G87.

The Supra's linkage is only in the Supra.

I have one, and have driven the G87.

Not the same, the BMW gets the traditional horrible linkage.

The linkage is also setup for the console in the Supra, the throws are super short because if it wasn't, you'd smash the HVAC panel going into R,1,3 and 5.

[baron95]

Lotus is great to look at. Despite having the most favorable weight distribution, and getting off the line better, it only reached 111MPH by the quarter mile!!! Ridiculous.

I sold my Camaro SS 1LE to buy the M2, and I'm glad the M2 beats the Camaro SS (even with the auto). I'm dying to get my car and see how it does on a road course. If it handles even anywhere close to the 1LE, I'll be happy.

Loved the 1LE, but looking forward to better refinement on the way to/from the track.

I considered the DH, but it is clear that there is nothing new vs the Mach 1.

The 1LE and DH have so much more/better tires than the others though - don't know why in the US BMW does not offer even Cup 2 240s.

[Blue Angel]

Camaro 12.2 @ 118 - Going out with a bang!

M2 is a freight train once it gets moving. Wow.