Suspension Comfort

[diesel1879]

I was wondering if anyone here with back problems has the f80 m3 and how their back feels after about an hour of driving.

Besides that anyone have any recommendations on how to make the ride less harsh? Please don't respond if your going to say the passive/adaptive is not harsh at all, buy a c63/lexus/335 instead, or you shouldn't be driving an m3 if you dont like the suspension (i love the suspension, my back hates it). I've owned 2 e46 m3s and I love the car. I destroyed my back riding and now I just cant take the harsh rides. I also am a die hard m3 fan and will find a way to make this work.

My plan as of now is to get the m3 with 18s and adaptive. Other options I was think about was customizing the seat, adding a linear motor and drive with feedback from an accelerometer to cancel out any harsh bumps (like the bose vibration free truck seats). Does anyone else have any recommendations? I've seen someone with bags on the m, I kinda wanna stay away from that. Maybe a different suspension set up?

[wazzza]

Advil

I had initially ordered the passive suspension as well, but after reading forum post, the general consensus seems to be go with Adaptive. I have heard good things about how well the comfort mode takes the bumps. Also, I am assuming the seats in the F80 are also way better than the e46.

[Duder]

so for me, the ride is incredible. I have two herniated discs that hurt like hell after driving for more than like 10 minutes. my JCW Mini was horrible for my back. this car feels super comfortable. the seats have really good lumbar support. everything is completely adjustable to get it just right for my back. so far no issues. did a good 2 hour drive to San Diego this last weekend and I didn't have any pain. if that helps at all..... I honestly feel like the ride is suuuuper smooth compared to my mini. I've driven minis for the last 10 years though. but this feels super comfortable and not rigid at all.

[X2Board]

The seats are very supportive in all the right places. If I drive my wife's Acura TL for more than hour, I'm in pain for several days. Heck, just thinking about it while typing this made my back hurt.

Even without the extended leg support that the E90's had, I can drive for hours with no fatigue.

[Miamiboyca]

Originally Posted by diesel1879

I was wondering if anyone here with back problems has the f80 m3 and how their back feels after about an hour of driving.

Besides that anyone have any recommendations on how to make the ride less harsh? Please don't respond if your going to say the passive/adaptive is not harsh at all, buy a c63/lexus/335 instead, or you shouldn't be driving an m3 if you dont like the suspension (i love the suspension, my back hates it). I've owned 2 e46 m3s and I love the car. I destroyed my back riding and now I just cant take the harsh rides. I also am a die hard m3 fan and will find a way to make this work.

My plan as of now is to get the m3 with 18s and adaptive. Other options I was think about was customizing the seat, adding a linear motor and drive with feedback from an accelerometer to cancel out any harsh bumps (like the bose vibration free truck seats). Does anyone else have any recommendations? I've seen someone with bags on the m, I kinda wanna stay away from that. Maybe a different suspension set up?

OH damn... you're in NJ

[SakhirM4]

And don't forget that the heated seats are great for backs on long drives.

[SaMaster14]

I can't comment on back pain, but I can tell you for sure that the M3 with adaptive suspension in comfort mode is noticeably more comfortable than my old 335is (which had passive suspension, although I was told the 'is' model has a firmer suspension than the 335i Msport)

[captainaudio]

My M4 with Adaptive Suspension is far more comfortable than my 2007 335i with sport suspension and RFTs was. In stock form (I got rid of the RFTs and installed Koni FSD shocks) that car was terrible at dealing with road imperfections.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by diesel1879

I was wondering if anyone here with back problems has the f80 m3 and how their back feels after about an hour of driving.

Besides that anyone have any recommendations on how to make the ride less harsh? Please don't respond if your going to say the passive/adaptive is not harsh at all, buy a c63/lexus/335 instead, or you shouldn't be driving an m3 if you dont like the suspension (i love the suspension, my back hates it). I've owned 2 e46 m3s and I love the car. I destroyed my back riding and now I just cant take the harsh rides. I also am a die hard m3 fan and will find a way to make this work.

My plan as of now is to get the m3 with 18s and adaptive. Other options I was think about was customizing the seat, adding a linear motor and drive with feedback from an accelerometer to cancel out any harsh bumps (like the bose vibration free truck seats). Does anyone else have any recommendations? I've seen someone with bags on the m, I kinda wanna stay away from that. Maybe a different suspension set up?

I'm a suspension engineer. Forget the idea of trying to actively tune out the harshness with an actuator. Not going to happen. Find a lumbar setting that provides proper back support, or use a pillow/cushion, or something else.

Have you driven an M3 with adaptive? The strong suit of adaptive suspension is that it smooths out all the large body motions and jerkiness, which is the type of stuff that typically causes back issues. You might be ok as-is as long as you can find a good seating position.

I have had back problems on and off for 15 years from skiing and other things, and I find that when they flare up, I can get the pain in check with a couple weeks of stretching and exercises.

[Inuyasha]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

My M4 with Adaptive Suspension is far more comfortable than my 2007 335i with sport suspension and RFTs was. In stock form (I got rid of the RFTs and installed Koni FSD shocks) that car was terrible at dealing with road imperfections.

I'm glad I read this cause I had the same car in 2007 and living in NYC. I would literately have my kidneys bounce around my stomach. It was such a harsh ride at times my butt lifted off the seat from bouncing around. I hated that ride but loved how it handled around corners.

I was worried the 2015 M would do the same, but your comparison and where you live suggest otherwise

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by DarkAgent

I'm glad I read this cause I had the same car in 2007 and living in NYC. I would literately have my kidneys bounce around my stomach. It was such a harsh ride at times my butt lifted off the seat from bouncing around. I hated that ride but loved how it handled around corners.

I was worried the 2015 M would do the same, but your comparison and where you live suggest otherwise

I also hated the (stock) suspension on my 2007 335i with sport package. I also did not like the way it handled on anything other than pristine roads as it was very easy to get the car unsettled by road imperfections. I found it to be one of the worst sorted out suspensions I ever drove. As it turned out it was rather easy to fix (ditch the RFTs, install Koni FSDs0 so I think the basic design was very good but it just wasn't very well implemented.

I would describe the sorted out 335i and the M4 the same way. Firm but damped and not harsh.

[TAL2GK]

Originally Posted by DarkAgent

I would literately have my kidneys bounce around my stomach.

Dude ... I would have a Nephrologist take a look at you. If your kidneys are literally bouncing around your stomach, you need some help.

If it's just figuratively, you should be fine.

[diesel1879]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I'm a suspension engineer. Forget the idea of trying to actively tune out the harshness with an actuator. Not going to happen. Find a lumbar setting that provides proper back support, or use a pillow/cushion, or something else.

Have you driven an M3 with adaptive? The strong suit of adaptive suspension is that it smooths out all the large body motions and jerkiness, which is the type of stuff that typically causes back issues. You might be ok as-is as long as you can find a good seating position.

I have had back problems on and off for 15 years from skiing and other things, and I find that when they flare up, I can get the pain in check with a couple weeks of stretching and exercises.

I did test drive the m3 with adaptive, my back did slight flare up after about an hour, but it was right after the snow in nj and the highway i drove on was terrible.

Im glad i can ask someone with experience in this field, and thank you for your reply. If you don't mind i have some additional questions. If the linear motor had a high frequency response would it not be able to filter unwanted chassis vibrations? I have seen the bose system do it, and trucks use air suspension seats, I can't speak on the dynamics so it really would be useful to have your input. Im a controls engineer, and I've been trying to model the vehicle dynamics in simulink(with no luck) but the only option i have as of now is just collect data from a test vehicle then work backwards from there.. I mean if all of this is a moot point i guess id have to come at it from another angle.

also yes the back pain does go away with exercises, but some how after driving it always comes back and stings.

Thanks again for your help and everyone else's feedback. I'm planning on ordering the 2016 m3 monday!

[Andrew115]

I know you want an m3/4 but maybe a 550 would be a better solution. It's not jarring in an F8 with adaptive but my back is worth more than anything I drive

Good luck and hope your back finds relief.

[Cajun1]

I'd certainly recommend the Adaptive suspension, it really makes the chassis comfortable while maintaining the option of firming things up. As far as the seats go, I simply couldn't find anything more comfortable or supportive, they're just great seats. Back problems here too but they're kept in check with physical therapy and stretching. I hope you can find a solution too!

[ChipB]

I can't offer any advice regarding the suspension, but I will offer a couple of fairly obvious things - you are probably way ahead of me on this, but just in case...

1. I suggest that you drive with the seat back in about the most upright position possible. Most people recline way too much, and/or sit too far back from the steering wheel, causing them to have to reach forward to be able to fully turn the steering wheel.

2. Adjust your seat so that with your shoulders fully pressed back against the seat you can touch the top of the steering wheel at the wrist without having to lean forward. Most people sit too far back, so at first this may feel a bit too close to the steering wheel for comfort, but it allows the best control of the wheel without having to lean forward while driving.

3. Do not carry your wallet in your back pocket. Sitting on a lumpy mass like that causes stress on your spine. When driving store your wallet in the door pocket.

Hope this helps.

[///M-er-gized]

Originally Posted by ChipB

3. Do not carry your wallet in your back pocket. Sitting on a lumpy mass like that causes stress on your spine. When driving store your wallet in the door pocket.

This applies to sitting in your office at work, flying on a plane, or pretty much any situation at all.

If you have a herniated disc or bad back, never ever sit on your wallet.

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by diesel1879

I was wondering if anyone here with back problems has the f80 m3 and how their back feels after about an hour of driving. [...]
My plan as of now is to get the m3 with 18s and adaptive.
Other options I was think about was customizing the seat, adding a linear motor and drive with feedback from an accelerometer to cancel out any harsh bumps (like the bose vibration free truck seats). Does anyone else have any recommendations? I've seen someone with bags on the m, I kinda wanna stay away from that. Maybe a different suspension set up?

[...]
I did test drive the m3 with adaptive, my back did slight flare up after about an hour, but it was right after the snow in nj and the highway i drove on was terrible.

I am also in NJ, and given the state of our roads (or what passes for roads around here), I did just that - 18s with adjustable suspension. Always set to "comfort" for daily driving. It works well. You still take a jolt if you forget to drive around one of the carters on the road, but otherwise, the setup works really well for my daily commute.

Seats are super comfortable even on longer trips. The furthest I went in one day was 5 hours/~350 miles, and these were the most comfortable BMW seats I ever sat in. And I had owned every 3-series generation since E30. If you made do with E46 seats, F80's are better.

However, I do not have a back problem, so your sensitivity will be higher than mine. If you can't take an F80 for an extended test drive (slip few $100 to a dealer with an used F80 on the lot?), I and your short test drive gave you a back ache, I would start looking at other cars.
It may hurt to admit this, but your priority has to be finding a ride that works with your body's constraints, not maximizing the fun of driving.

a

[JNoSol]

I drove from KC straight to COTA with a couple short fuel stops, about 10hrs. My back felt great, a lot more comfortable than the seats in my 6GC mSport.

Passive suspension and stock 18s.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by diesel1879

I did test drive the m3 with adaptive, my back did slight flare up after about an hour, but it was right after the snow in nj and the highway i drove on was terrible.

Im glad i can ask someone with experience in this field, and thank you for your reply. If you don't mind i have some additional questions. If the linear motor had a high frequency response would it not be able to filter unwanted chassis vibrations? I have seen the bose system do it, and trucks use air suspension seats, I can't speak on the dynamics so it really would be useful to have your input. Im a controls engineer, and I've been trying to model the vehicle dynamics in simulink(with no luck) but the only option i have as of now is just collect data from a test vehicle then work backwards from there.. I mean if all of this is a moot point i guess id have to come at it from another angle.

also yes the back pain does go away with exercises, but some how after driving it always comes back and stings.

Thanks again for your help and everyone else's feedback. I'm planning on ordering the 2016 m3 monday!

First, consider that these cars ride poorly in cold weather, because dampers, tires, and bushings all get 50-200% stiffer. Because this car is so stiff in the first place, it is even more sensitive to cold weather than many other cars. This really might not be the car for you if you're going to drive it year round in NJ.

2nd, vehicle dynamics is an extremely complex field. Modelling and simulation can only get you so far before you have to rely on iterative tuning and in-vehicle development. There's no reason that what you propose couldn't be done, given enough time and resources. But . . .

In order to properly filter the road inputs, you'd need to be able to sense and predict the behavior of the vehicle. When we do this for our adaptive suspension controls, we rely on design information from the OEM that's not available to consumers. You would also have to figure out how to get access to the sensor data from the DME in the first place . . . I don't THINK the ODBII connector has the bandwidth to support the response that your system would require (although I might be wrong on this). Our Simulink model for our control software is massive.

Even if you could get the controls to work, the seat is hard mounted to the floor, so in order to have any effect, your system would have to replace the existing seat mounting structure with a decoupled system. The seat is an integral part of the vehicles safety and suspension system. You'd be literally risking your life and your passengers by making this type of modification.

Controlling a ~200-300lb mass at a couple g of vertical acceleration and up to 15-20hz also takes a lot of power. More than your 12V output can handle. That's the main reason linear motors haven't replaced normal shock absorbers yet.

The safety validation alone makes this a non-starter in my opinion, not to mention all the technical hurdles. You might want to do some research into proper driving positions for back issues, or figure out exactly what about the driving experience is bothering your back, and address that somehow.

[diesel1879]

Originally Posted by Racer20

First, consider that these cars ride poorly in cold weather, because dampers, tires, and bushings all get 50-200% stiffer. Because this car is so stiff in the first place, it is even more sensitive to cold weather than many other cars. This really might not be the car for you if you're going to drive it year round in NJ.

2nd, vehicle dynamics is an extremely complex field. Modelling and simulation can only get you so far before you have to rely on iterative tuning and in-vehicle development. There's no reason that what you propose couldn't be done, given enough time and resources. But . . .

In order to properly filter the road inputs, you'd need to be able to sense and predict the behavior of the vehicle. When we do this for our adaptive suspension controls, we rely on design information from the OEM that's not available to consumers. You would also have to figure out how to get access to the sensor data from the DME in the first place . . . I don't THINK the ODBII connector has the bandwidth to support the response that your system would require (although I might be wrong on this). Our Simulink model for our control software is massive.

Even if you could get the controls to work, the seat is hard mounted to the floor, so in order to have any effect, your system would have to replace the existing seat mounting structure with a decoupled system. The seat is an integral part of the vehicles safety and suspension system. You'd be literally risking your life and your passengers by making this type of modification.

Controlling a ~200-300lb mass at a couple g of vertical acceleration and up to 15-20hz also takes a lot of power. More than your 12V output can handle. That's the main reason linear motors haven't replaced normal shock absorbers yet.

The safety validation alone makes this a non-started in my opinion, not to mention all the technical hurdles. You might want to do some research into proper driving positions for back issues, or figure out exactly what about the driving experience is bothering your back, and address that somehow.

I think you've covered almost every aspect and have shed a lot of light on the complexity of the build. Your first point about weather is something I've never considered. About the modeling Ive figured that it would be way out the scope of my knowledge, and like you said it would need a good amount of data. Also like you said, I don't think the obdII port (i don't know if the m is still RS232 averaging 115kbps) can get data the id need, at that i don't know which protocol they use (maybe can open, germans like to use that). Also the safety issue is massive factor. one i haven't even considered. So all in all I really appreciate you breaking it down for me. only other options i have is another daily driver, or switch out the suspension my for a more forgiving set. Again thanks for the breakdown. you sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

also thanks for everyone else's feedback. Especially about seating positions and ergonomic tips for driving.