Why aren't there any small RWD performance sedans from non-luxury brands?

[mkoesel]

The Challenger Hellcat is a beast, no doubt, and so is its Charger Brother. But what baffles me is that FCA nor GM nor Ford will build a "small" RWD non-luxury sedan. Imagine the plot twist if there were a sedan equivalent of the Mustang or 2016 Camaro (I leave off the Challenger since it's a boat, too damn big - so big that the Charger is its sedan equivalent). So, for $40k-ish, you get an 3600lb sedan complete with the ~450hp V8, muscular body work, and these cars are designed to go around corners nowadays too.

If they can build a $60k 700hp led sled, surely it's financially feasible to build what I suggest, and I'm certain there's a market for this too. Why doesn't anyone attack this space?

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The Charger Hellcat is a beast, no doubt, and so is its Charger Brother. But what baffles me is that FCA nor GM nor Ford will build a "small" RWD non-luxury sedan. Imagine the plot twist if there were a sedan equivalent of the Mustang or 2016 Camaro (I leave off the Challenger since it's a boat, too damn big - so big that the Charger is its sedan equivalent). So, for $40k-ish, you get an 3600lb sedan complete with the ~450hp V8, muscular body work, and these cars are designed to go around corners nowadays too.

If they can build a $60k 700hp led sled, surely it's financially feasible to build what I suggest, and I'm certain there's a market for this too. Why doesn't anyone attack this space?

The Chevrolet SS would be the closest. Hasn't sold very well.

I'd imagine when you move into the sedan realm customers are more concerned with practically vs. a coupe that's more thought of as "sporty". Generally, RWD cars lack a lot of practicality that FWD cars have. Cost, trunk space, interior space, fuel economy, etc.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

The Chevrolet SS would be the closest. Hasn't sold very well.

Agree that it's the closest, but it's still quite a bit off the mark. Too heavy, underpowered, bland bodywork, and too big a premium vs. the equivalent Camaro. I root for the Big3 (it's in my blood) so I want to like that car myself, even if it's the wrong size. But there's just more wrong with it than right.

I'd imagine when you move into the sedan realm, customers are more concerned with practically vs. a coupe that's more thought of as "sporty". Generally, RWD cars lack a lot of practicality that FWD cars have. Cost, trunk space, interior space, fuel economy, etc.

Sure, but with respect to my first post, like I say, if this counterintuitive, contradictory automotive charicature is not just surviving, but making waves, surely something more universally appealing (despite, to your point, still being far from practical) is at least as viable. Ok, so if we say, for the sake of argument, that the Hellcat Charger works because it's just so crazy and ostentatious that you have to love it, then we can build a similarly intangible case for a four door GT350 (for example). With little effort, it should bury an M3 in every test for thousands less, so that's a good start right there. Muscle car enthusiasts love to see the "overpriced Euro junk" beaten at its own game - we all know that.

Ok, admittedly I'm skipping over tons of details such as the fact there's no base sedan to build this M3 killer from like there was the Hellcat. But we can sell V6 and I4 TT models too, surely, to pay for the platform. Make them AWD by default if people are too afraid of RWD. You know, that kind of thing, and lots of other related ideas that I don't have time to articulate right now.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The Challenger Hellcat is a beast, no doubt, and so is its Charger Brother. But what baffles me is that FCA nor GM nor Ford will build a "small" RWD non-luxury sedan. Imagine the plot twist if there were a sedan equivalent of the Mustang or 2016 Camaro (I leave off the Challenger since it's a boat, too damn big - so big that the Charger is its sedan equivalent). So, for $40k-ish, you get an 3600lb sedan complete with the ~450hp V8, muscular body work, and these cars are designed to go around corners nowadays too.

If they can build a $60k 700hp led sled, surely it's financially feasible to build what I suggest, and I'm certain there's a market for this too. Why doesn't anyone attack this space?

Chevrolet makes one... The SS

Comes with LS3, and now (starting this year) magnetic ride and a manual. Most underrated car in history.

[jimmiebimmer]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Agree that it's the closest, but it's still quite a bit off the mark. Too heavy, underpowered, bland bodywork, and too big a premium vs. the equivalent Camaro. I root for the Big3 (it's in my blood) so I want to like that car myself, even if it's the wrong size. But there's just more wrong with it than right.

“more right then wrong”? Well, no.

The SS is pretty much universally praised as being one of, if not the best moderately-priced large driver’s cars available. Heavy? It weighs less than 4,000 pounds. Underpowered? 12.9 1/4 mile and 0-60 in 4.5 seconds seem pretty decent at this price point for a full-size sedan. And if that is not good enough (it is not for me) this is a GM LS car we are talking here, it is very cheap and easy to mod. Looks are subjective, but the SS is perfect for someone who does not like the in-your-face boy racer aesthetic of the fiat offerings. The standard equipment at the price of $46,000 is pretty darn good. Oh, and a true manual transmission option.

Now I know this is a BMW forum and people LOVE to get their egos stroked over the brand. More than one publication/review has directly compared the SS to the E39 M5 as they share the same no-frills driving experience with decent power, a well-balanced chassis, and a driver-focused yet very comfortable environment. And again, a real manual option.

The SS is not perfect but it is still a great car in a segment with very few well-rounded options available.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The Challenger Hellcat is a beast, no doubt, and so is its Charger Brother. But what baffles me is that FCA nor GM nor Ford will build a "small" RWD non-luxury sedan. Imagine the plot twist if there were a sedan equivalent of the Mustang or 2016 Camaro (I leave off the Challenger since it's a boat, too damn big - so big that the Charger is its sedan equivalent). So, for $40k-ish, you get an 3600lb sedan complete with the ~450hp V8, muscular body work, and these cars are designed to go around corners nowadays too.

If they can build a $60k 700hp led sled, surely it's financially feasible to build what I suggest, and I'm certain there's a market for this too. Why doesn't anyone attack this space?

Agree with you... Neither will BMW. it would be called a 2 series gran coupe if they did..

I,m not picky.. don't need a V8... I would take an N55 or "S20" or an "S48"... just give it the CF roof and a little baby M6 GC treatment..

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by hikeskool

“more right then wrong”? Well, no.

When looking for a car that could compete with an M3 the way a GT350 will compete with an M4 (and actually, that's overkill - something midway between the GT and GT350 would do it), it simply comes up short in a number of areas and I doubt you'll disagree. Is it a nice car and good effort by GM - yes, absolutely.

Still, if a 707hp barge comes at an M3 price, then a smaller, lighter, (much) less powerful little brother that, like an M3, has more than one trick up its sleeve should be doable for $10k+ less. Indeed, a Chevrolet ATS-V would basically be that car. Maybe it's not in GM's best interest to bring such a product to market; with the ATS (V included) struggling to get a foothold they can ill afford to go and undercut their own luxury brand. But Ford and FCA, not to mention the Koreans or even a brand like Subaru (so be it if it's AWD), have no such conflict of interest. Someone should build this car, I say. Well, I mean I say it with no less conviction then I'd have said someone should build a Hellcat. That happened, and now look at all the possible gaps in the market it exposed - gaps that no one would even have thought to explore, I'll bet.

[jimmiebimmer]

I am confused - none of the cars you mentioned compete with the SS in any way.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by hikeskool

I am confused - none of the cars you mentioned compete with the SS in any way.

I think maybe you didn't read prior posts to get proper context.

[M3guy3]

i would say more people want more luxury, and more space.

the current hellcat, and corvettes are doing really well in sales anyways.

[nicknaz]

I think its because few would buy them. Imagine a rwd 140hp civic or corolla.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by M3guy3

i would say more people want more luxury, and more space.

the current hellcat, and corvettes are doing really well in sales anyways.

Not sure how the bolded part is relevant.

Anyway, what I would say is that Mustangs and Camaros, for example, in general sell great (160k+ units a year between them). And with respect to your first point, these are non-luxury cars and don't particularly have much interior room. So, let's be bullishly pessimistic and say, arbitrarily, that the market shrinks by a whole 50% if we add rear doors to those. Even that is still a lot of cars, right?

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I think its because few would buy them. Imagine a rwd 140hp civic or corolla.

How about a RWD 300hp, 400hp, and 500hp Camcord/Mali-fusion/Sonoptima? AWD is optional, just like with most other RWD cars today.

[OneRib]

Too small of a niche. Sedan buyers want practical over performance. Most people buying non luxury sedans are not interested in snow tires or other real or perceived compromises in RWD packaging. Most people have been brainwashed into thinking RWD cars are deathtraps in the snow and rain. I have more people ask me how hard is it to drive in the snow when they learn my car is RWD.

People will by a Mustang/Camaro and pair it with a truck/SUV. Many forum members do it the same with the M3/M4.

Big 3 are afraid (rightly so) that they wouldn't be able to sell enough. Look at all the Camry sales. That's your audience.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by OneRib

Too small of a niche. Sedan buyers want practical over performance. Most people buying non luxury sedans are not interested in snow tires or other real or perceived compromises in RWD packaging.

Ok, so let's think outside the box a moment.

Instead of a sedan, we build a coupe with four doors. I know, crazy idea right? But you might have seen this type of car before - so I confess up front I didn't think of it. You still with me?

Now we trick these carefree, caution-to-the-wind, coupe-crazies and convince them that they needn't look elsewhere anymore when it comes time for the growing family. Instead, you just trade that snappy Mustang coupe (or whatever) in for the for the new four door model.

Ok, so half of them - referring back to what I said in my earlier post about sales predictions - see past the ruse, tell you to go to hell, and trade the coupe plus their soul in for a CUV instead. Fine, but that's still 40k sales of what might otherwise have been spent on an entry luxury sedan like a 328i.

[OneRib]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Ok, so let's think outside the box a moment.

Instead of a sedan, we build a coupe with four doors. I know, crazy idea right? But you might have seen this type of car before - so I confess up front I didn't think of it. You still with me?

Now we trick these carefree, caution-to-the-wind, coupe-crazies and convince them that they needn't look elsewhere anymore when it comes time for the growing family. Instead, you just trade that snappy Mustang coupe (or whatever) in for the for the new four door model.

Ok, so half of them - referring back to what I said in my earlier post about sales predictions - see past the ruse, tell you to go to hell, and trade the coupe plus their soul in for a CUV instead. Fine, but that's still 40k sales of what might otherwise have been spent on an entry luxury sedan like a 328i.

Works for me. I would do it, just explaining why it hasn't happened. I would wager the first automaker to do it would have a big hit and everyone would fall over themselves to make a copy.
This is where having Pontiac as a boutique brand would have been perfect. They could have survived on 3-4 models centered around affordable RWD performance cars.
1 small RWD 2 seat sports car (think BRZ with more power)
1 midsize RWD 4dr coupe/sedan (your car)
1 small FWD/AWD performance hatch (GTI/Focus)
You could sell it with Buick dealers and use existing platforms but allow the engineers to differentiate the ride (like M/AMG/RS/V)

I would green light it.

[ASAP]

Lol... this is a very valid topic and one i've asked before... essentially what I want is a BMW that is made by Honda.

-RWD
-High revving and torquey Turbo Motor
- About 3300 lbs
- Great DCT
- Honda Reliability
- 4 doors and great looks

I don't think anyone without a premium brand will make such a vehicle as I think it would be too expensive to produce and sell in that class.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

How about a RWD 300hp, 400hp, and 500hp Camcord/Mali-fusion/Sonoptima? AWD is optional, just like with most other RWD cars today.

That would make it an m3 sedan, which as we saw in e90 and f80 is not selling as well as coupe.

How about the sti and evo? There are not rwd but are great performance sedans from mainstream brands. Everyone who got an a4/328/c250 could have gotten one and prioritized performance over brand but sadly few did. I myself am guilty of lease a 328 instead of getting an evo/sti

This whole "small rwd non premium sedan" it think is like the powerhouse wagon or diesel/manual car. Lots of noise on internet but when push comes to shove no one wants it.

If subaru pulled the front axles out of sti tomorrow to convert it to rwd and put it up for sale at $30k would you get it?

[OneRib]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

That would make it an m3 sedan, which as we saw in e90 and f80 is not selling as well as coupe.

How about the sti and evo? There are not rwd but are great performance sedans from mainstream brands. Everyone who got an a4/328/c250 could have gotten one and prioritized performance over brand but sadly few did. I myself am guilty of lease a 328 instead of getting an evo/sti

This whole "small rwd non premium sedan" it think is like the powerhouse wagon or diesel/manual car. Lots of noise on internet but when push comes to shove no one wants it.

If subaru pulled the front axles out of sti tomorrow to convert it to rwd and put it up for sale at $30k would you get it?

Good points and the reason why auto manufacturers won't do it. The problem with the STI and Evo were they were based on cheap econoboxes and only the performance was addressed.
I would go more refinement with less performance and RWD. More like a Miata/BRZ balance.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by OneRib

Good points and the reason why auto manufacturers won't do it. The problem with the STI and Evo were they were based on cheap econoboxes and only the performance was addressed.
I would go more refinement with less performance and RWD. More like a Miata/BRZ balance.

I was goofing around on those auto sales stats websites, and it was interesting that withing a brand the larger/less interesting cars always seemed to outsell the smaller/more interesting ones, because the price overlaps

WRX/STI ~2k cars per month, Legacy ~5k cars per month
Lexus IS ~4k cars per month, Lexus ES ~6k cars per month
GTi ~2k cars per month, Passat ~8k cars per month
FRS was also about ~2k cars per month

The Lexus IS one was particularly relevant. small/RWD is not as popular as large/FWD

[jimmiebimmer]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I think maybe you didn't read prior posts to get proper context.

Still confused. GM built the car you are describing, the G8. And it was very well received. The GXP trim ran right at 40 and was nothing less than a critical success. The G8 ran on a longer wheelbase Zeta platform, the same used in the outgoing Camaro.

The SS is the follow-up to the GXP. It is praised for exactly the same merits as the GXP. Factoring in inflation and all the extra "stuff" you get with the SS it is essentially the same price or cheaper in 2013/now than the GXP was in 2008.

[OneRib]

Originally Posted by nicknaz

I was goofing around on those auto sales stats websites, and it was interesting that withing a brand the larger/less interesting cars always seemed to outsell the smaller/more interesting ones, because the price overlaps

WRX/STI ~2k cars per month, Legacy ~5k cars per month
Lexus IS ~4k cars per month, Lexus ES ~6k cars per month
GTi ~2k cars per month, Passat ~8k cars per month
FRS was also about ~2k cars per month

The Lexus IS one was particularly relevant. small/RWD is not as popular as large/FWD

As enthusiasts, we tend to look at things differently. I wouldn't buy an ES over an IS. As for the other choices, I would likely go with the smaller car. The general public doesn't feel that way. They may enjoy seeing knowing about certain performance oriented cars, but in the end they want space, comfort, reliability, and the illusion of sport.

Actually think this is what Lexus is doing with their F line. I read an article where the Lexus engineer admitted to creating the GS-F for street performance and they didn't try and ouch the envelope. I think he called it "attainable performance". Something where the average driver could fully test the limits (meaning that the limits were modest compared to the competition). Not a fan of this approach for your top sporting models, but we will see if they are right.

[nicknaz]

I recently had a... Portly... Uber x driver pick me up in a dodge dart sedan. His gut was touching the steering wheel.

Wonder if that is a key reason why there are no small rwd sedans.... Many americans wouldnt fit....?!

"Illusion of sport" you got that right.. People love that.. Especially those m428 and m435 gran coupe owners on the other sub forums