Clutch shudder on take off

[BMWayneG]

I picked my car up from a service recently, and the service advisor commented that the car was 'shuddering' on take off, and it was a sign the clutch was on the way out.

Car is a 2010 e90 M3 DCT Comp pack, 92k kms on the clock.

I'm also under BMW extended warranty, but the advisor didn't think clutch issues would be covered.

Anyone experienced this?

[Josparky]

yup...my car shudders a tiny bit when changed from Drive to Reverse. My car's only got 46k klms... not sure if this is normal or due to clutch wear...

yes...highly doubtful clutch wear would be covered under warranty as it is general wear and not a fault...

[BMWayneG]

Originally Posted by Josparky

yup...my car shudders a tiny bit when changed from Drive to Reverse. My car's only got 46k klms... not sure if this is normal or due to clutch wear...

yes...highly doubtful clutch wear would be covered under warranty as it is general wear and not a fault...

These were the service advisors words to me:

"I noticed when parking your car that it is shuddering when taking off. It's only because I know these M3's so well, and that I've driven so many of them over the years, that I know that your clutch is potentially on the way out. It will cost you roughly $5,000 for us to replace the clutch components and restore the car to how it would have felt when new".

It's interesting that your car is exhibiting this after only 46k klms.

Again, would love to hear from other forum members if they do (or do not) have this issue, and also how many k's they have on the clock!

[BanjoPaterson]

Originally Posted by Savior

These were the service advisors words to me:

"I noticed when parking your car that it is shuddering when taking off. It's only because I know these M3's so well, and that I've driven so many of them over the years, that I know that your clutch is potentially on the way out. It will cost you roughly $5,000 for us to replace the clutch components and restore the car to how it would have felt when new".

It's interesting that your car is exhibiting this after only 46k klms.

Again, would love to hear from other forum members if they do (or do not) have this issue, and also how many k's they have on the clock!

First - I'm calling BS on this. What are they doing for $5000? Changing the clutch pack? Changing the clutch oil? Replacing the entire DCT (which should be in the order of $12000) - just what exactly are they getting?

My car (2009 DCT) has always shuddered slightly changing from park to reverse; and from reverse to drive. From what I understand, that is how the DCT is. Infact, my car used to really give a good jolt and thump. When I first got my car I freaked out and I asked my mechanics (Advanced Tech Auto - BMW specialists in Canberra) and they drove the car and said it was normal DCT operation -- and that mine was actually very smooth.

Since then, trawling through forums such as M3 post and others, I've discovered that many cars with DCT have drive train noise... one owner of a Nissan GTR complained that their DCT sounded like "a tumble drier full of spanners".

So if you asked BMW then get a second opinion from a reputable independent specialist. Since you're in Melbourne you may want to try SouthernBM (I haven't used them, but their reputation on Whirlpool is as good as any garage gets). I would be surprised if the clutch is on its way out !!!! A wet clutch DCT should last hundred of thousands of kms. My daughter's wet clutch VW DSG is on 210,000km and no sign of breaking.

Check that you have the latest software for the DCT. When I bought my M3 it had the old software, which thumped around a lot. After the software upgrade (and after a period where the software "learns" about the clutch), it now is very, very smooth with only slight jolts and thumps.

So, if at this point it transpires that your clutch in the DCT is worn -- and that would surprise me no end... just how many launches have you done! -- then I would check your warranty to see if it isn't covered. The clutch on a manual car may be a wear and tear item, but the clutch on a DCT shouldn't be (IMHO). I'd call BMW australia on that one. Ask them to clarify that in writing too.

If you get no joy from BMW Australia just say you're going to the Victorian Consumer Affairs. You see, there are parts that have to be fit for purpose and the warranty extends for years, even if the dealer and manufacturer do not believe so. An example is that consumer affairs believes motor engines should last a lot longer than 2 years (I think it's 10). A DCT clutch should fall into this. Ring consumer affairs first, just to check.

Regardless of their answer, write the letter and send it to consumer affairs (CC both BMW head office and the local dealership) to start an adjudication.

The thing with getting a complaint through consumer affairs is that it will cost BMW far more than $5000 to represent themselves if you make a claim. If they have to go through the process, the cost in terms of legal and people hours, not to mention the cost if they lose, will often mean they will be quite keen to avoid this.

I'm getting riled, but the fact is I believe you're being taken for a ride because "he can afford $5000 because he has an M3". My experience is that the dealerships are pretty much full of muppets in every aspect except getting money from honest customers.

ahhhh....

[FogCityM3]

DCT is covered by the BMW extended warranty, MT is not and considered a wear item. It should be covered.

[BanjoPaterson]

Originally Posted by Savior

These were the service advisors words to me:

"I noticed when parking your car that it is shuddering when taking off. It's only because I know these M3's so well, and that I've driven so many of them over the years, that I know that your clutch is potentially on the way out. It will cost you roughly $5,000 for us to replace the clutch components and restore the car to how it would have felt when new".

I'm wondering if he thinks your car is a manual transmission rather than a DCT?! As the poster above said, DCT should be covered by extended warranty (again check with BMW Australia), but a manual clutch is not.

Sounds like your "I know these M3s so well" probably know squat... or is hoping you do.

PS BMW will never replace just the clutch pack, but will replace the entire DCT fire clutch wear. A DCT is over $10000 Aussie just for the unit itself http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=28007842585)

So again, exactly what does he think he's replacing for $5000?

Best of luck.

[BMWayneG]

Thanks to both FogcityM3 and BanjoPaterson - really appreciate your comments and thoughts on this!

I'm definitely going to chase up getting this issue inspected and potentially rectified under warranty. I had thought previously that DCT was actually considered a manual transmission, at least that was a comment made by my insurer at the time I purchased the car.

If you Google "is dct manual or automatic" there are several articles that suggest a DCT (or double clutch transmission) is actually two manual gearboxes stuffed into one unit. Interesting. I'm not going to comment on that as I'm not an expert.

Hopefully my DCT is fine, if not I hope it is covered under extended warranty.

I'll post the outcome of this when I know more.

[Josparky]

Sounds like my little shudder from D to R is normal... good to know...
First time in an DCT so wasn't sure... Getting used to and liking the thumping noises from gear changes... It's kinda getting addictive... lol

I called BMW Sydney to see if I can get a engine or DCT software update and they said they won't do it unless I had some sort of fault... Is this true? Can we not upgrade the software even if there's one available? I heard the software upgrades smooths out a lot of the clunkiness of the DCT and few other engine parameter changes...

[BMWayneG]

I should have mentioned in my previous post that I have the BPMSport DCT upgrade.

I only installed the BPMSport DCT upgrade 3 weeks ago, and whilst I would say my transmission shifts are smoother, the shudder is still there (which would suggest the shudder is probably more hardware than software related).

For anyone with shudder issues, don't waste your time and money on a software update just for the shudder issue - I doubt it will make any difference. For smoother shifts and less clunking - absolutely.

[DaveDee]

Originally Posted by Savior

I should have mentioned in my previous post that I have the BPMSport DCT upgrade.

I only installed the BPMSport DCT upgrade 3 weeks ago, and whilst I would say my transmission shifts are smoother, the shudder is still there (which would suggest the shudder is probably more hardware than software related).

For anyone with shudder issues, don't waste your time and money on a software update just for the shudder issue - I doubt it will make any difference. For smoother shifts and less clunking - absolutely.

The BPM DCT flash certainly improves smoothness and in particular the shift from forward/reverse, also less jerky when decelerating. You should flash back to stock if you are going to present the car for warranty though. Whilst the DCT is an amazing gearbox but can be a bit jerky from time to time. It's a good idea to remove the the cover an inspect the gasket for leaks while it's under warranty, the gasket kit parts cost alone is around $1500.

Andrew Brien at Southern BM is excellent and will be able to give you an accurate diagnosis and advise if you have or don't have an issue

[BanjoPaterson]

Andrew Brien at Southern BM is excellent and will be able to give you an accurate diagnosis and advise if you have or don't have an issue

+1

I've found the reputable, independent mechanics to be lightyears better than the BMW dealers... not to say this is always the case, but a good independent specialist is often competing against a dealership and so has to differentiate themselves on equal or better quality at slightly lower price.

[vsix]

Originally Posted by BanjoPaterson

I'm wondering if he thinks your car is a manual transmission rather than a DCT?! As the poster above said, DCT should be covered by extended warranty (again check with BMW Australia), but a manual clutch is not.

Sounds like your "I know these M3s so well" probably know squat... or is hoping you do.

PS BMW will never replace just the clutch pack, but will replace the entire DCT fire clutch wear. A DCT is over $10000 Aussie just for the unit itself http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=28007842585)

So again, exactly what does he think he's replacing for $5000?

Best of luck.

So freaking true, what you said!
OP would shell out max. 600$ if a clutch replacement would be considered.

[FogCityM3]

Sorry I didn't realize you from Australia. You may have a similar document there but this is from BMW USA:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._qLWjQ&cad=rja

[BMWayneG]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Sorry I didn't realize you from Australia. You may have a similar document there but this is from BMW USA:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._qLWjQ&cad=rja

Thanks again - that document makes it pretty clear. Any clutch related issues are not covered, even in DCT.

I'm probably going to take DaveDee's advice and get the guys at SouthernBM to take a look. I get my car serviced at the dealership in South Melbourne because it's 2k's from home, but major works I'm happy to get done a bit further away in order to save some $$$'s.

[FogCityM3]

Sorry, I think you may have mis-understood: the document shows what is covered.. DCT is covered, MT is not.

Originally Posted by Savior

Thanks again - that document makes it pretty clear. Any clutch related issues are not covered, even in DCT.

I'm probably going to take DaveDee's advice and get the guys at SouthernBM to take a look. I get my car serviced at the dealership in South Melbourne because it's 2k's from home, but major works I'm happy to get done a bit further away in order to save some $$$'s.

[BanjoPaterson]

See http://bmwsydney.com.au/com/en/insig...insurance.html and note:

"This insurance is issued by Allianz Australia Insurance Limited, AFS Licence No. 234708 ABN 15 000 122 850 (Allianz). In arranging this insurance BMW Australia Finance Limited ABN 78 007 101 715 and authorised dealers act as agents of Allianz and not as your agent. "

Googling "BMW Australia extended warranty terms conditions" led me to this link:

https://www.einsure.com.au/wb/public/openCurrentPolicyDocument/POL495DE_BMW/$File/POL495DE_BMW.pdf

I think the service manager was thinking about the following exclusions:

• 14. Any mechanical failure arising from wear and tear and/or the gradual reduction in operating performance of any covered component.
• 15. Any items that require replacement as a part of normal vehicle maintenance or are known to have a limited service life. These items include (but are not limited to): spark plugs and leads, glow plugs, belts, filters (including particulate filters), hoses, brake and clutch linings, brake pads, disc rotors and/or disc and drum machining, batteries (including electric or hybrid vehicle batteries and power cells) and incandescent globes

But, with respect to point 15, whilst a DCT has clutch linings, the DCT and its clutch pack ARE NOT A SERVICABLE ITEMS which are replaced during ANY normal vehicle maintenance. Even the DCT oil is never replaced ("sealed for life"). So the DCT, not being a servicable item requiring maintenance, is excluded from 15. I believe you'd win the case in consumer adjudication (BTW I am not a lawyer!!) by asking the BMW representative to produce the service requirements for the DCT. There are none. In other words, there is no way you can service and maintain the DCT .

The only point I'd say is possibly 14, but again the DCT should have a life longer than 90,000km. Particularly for a non-serviced item.

Aaaarggghhh!! Blood pressure's gone up again! I hate BMW dealers like this.... now where did I put my prozac?!

[BMWayneG]

Thanks again all - really appreciate all the great info... I'll update this post with how this turns out once I get my car in for a checkup.

[BanjoPaterson]

Been on the edge of my seat here!!

[JuzMe]

OP, does your car shudder when taking off from 1st gear only? I've tried D1 which means taking off in 2nd gear and car seems ok; maybe beacuse 2nd gear much less power and car's taking off very slowly. Mine does shudder quite often in 1st hear while moving off after stopping at traffic lights, etc. Only happens when taking off and I don't experience this when changing gears 2-7 while driving. Car's slightly less than 50,000 kms

[Jerez_M3_Sean]

Occasionally my car shudders just a little bit on take off. I consider this normal as many of the performance cars I have had do something similar.

I always figured that if the car was cold and your taking off with low revs you'll get a shake or judder.

BTW - I want to agree with the comments by Banjo patterson.... many of the service operators don't really know what they are talking about. I'm a Canberra local and I also use Advanced Tech Automotive. These guys have always been great. I'm about to get the monster serviced by these guys.

[BanjoPaterson]

Originally Posted by Jerez_M3_Sean

... I'm a Canberra local and I also use Advanced Tech Automotive. These guys have always been great. I'm about to get the monster serviced by these guys.

Somewhat off topic - what's your take on the infamous "rod bearing issue"?

I've spoken to Russell and Tony at Advance Tech, and I think they're somewhat sceptical. Nevertheless, I've bought BE bearings (and will be buying BE valve springs) for a change next year. Advance Tech said they'll change the RBs if I really wanted to, but I did sense an underlying "Oh well... a fool and his money..."

However, they did install new brass/delrin reduction gears (which I bought from the UK [see M3 cutters]) for both throttle actuators, more as a preventative measure, and I've been very happy with the result!

[MFKN3]

Originally Posted by BanjoPaterson

Somewhat off topic - what's your take on the infamous "rod bearing issue"?

I've spoken to Russell and Tony at Advance Tech, and I think they're somewhat sceptical. Nevertheless, I've bought BE bearings (and will be buying BE valve springs) for a change next year. Advance Tech said they'll change the RBs if I really wanted to, but I did sense an underlying "Oh well... a fool and his money..."

However, they did install new brass/delrin reduction gears (which I bought from the UK [see M3 cutters]) for both throttle actuators, more as a preventative measure, and I've been very happy with the result!

I know of more M3 owners who have had rebuilds than those who haven't.