M3 manual overall faster than M3 M-DCT?

[trah23]

I was wonderin about this, is the manual M3 capable of a overall faster 0-60 time, while the M-DCT is capable of quicker 0-60 on average??

I read that the manual supposedly does 0-60 in 4.8 sec but have seen people get it in just 4.3 seconds, on the otherhand i read that the M-

DCT will get 4.6 seconds, but thats how fast it will always go b/c its a automatic, give or take .1 seconds, depending of the road conditions.

So if you want the best overall 0-60 time, not the best 0-60 time on average, manual is the way to go right??????

[MDCTFTW]

Originally Posted by trah23

So if you want the best overall 0-60 time, not the best 0-60 time on average, manual is the way to go right??????

Come again?

You can't simply pick the best 0-60 time from a 6MT VS the average 0-60 from DCT. That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't you consider the fastest times achieved from both or the average from both?

[Blip Bavarian]

MDCT is faster every time. A human cant shift as fast as a computer. Also MDCT has launch control.

[milk242]

I think he's saying that the M-DCT won't have any variation in 0-60 mph time, so if it reads 4.6 seconds, it'll always be 4.6 seconds no matter what you do. While the manual is more variable and can get 0-60 mph in 4.3 seconds

I have to diagree, getting the quickest 0-60 mph time doesn't just rely on the transmission, it depends on a number of factors.

[rai]

I would think (not having seen but one test of a DCT not any data really)

the with the DCT there is no reason why it can't have as good a launch as a MT has.

Not every launch with either tranny will be the best launce (even with LC) because the tires or surface or temp could be wrong for the RPMs it's impossible to say you have the best time unless you test it many times and take the best one.

the best MT v best for DCT should be almost the same. There is only one shift to 60 mph so the DCT won't save much time (if any) with one shift.

But likely (IMO) the DCT will be quicker (not enough to notice) best time (or the same).

[rmmcdaniel]

My two cents, with full M-DCT bias (I have one on order)...

He also does not appear to take into account that all German manufacturer's quote performance numbers conservatively and the cars are always faster when tested by magazines.

He compares the BMW published 4.8sec 6MT time to the 4.3sec time he has seen (although I believe 4.1sec is the widely published best 6MT time recorded by a credible magazine), but maybe doesn't realize that there are likely going to be M-DCT numbers reported by magazines that are much better than the BMW stated 4.6sec time, just on account of BMW publishing such conservative numbers in general, without even taking into account all the other real world conditions that can affect performance numbers.

[Ryan(e92)]

So everyone is saying that launch control is superior to revving an engine to the perfect rpm before dumping it? I think the op has a point. It seems Im just as biased as the M-DCT crowd. Damn. Just for the record what is the best 0-60 time for M-DCT?

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by Ryan(e92)

So everyone is saying that launch control is superior to revving an engine to the perfect rpm before dumping it? I think the op has a point. It seems Im just as biased as the M-DCT crowd. Damn. Just for the record what is the best 0-60 time for M-DCT?

Yes. Because launch control will rev to the perfect rpm every time and a person won't. Also launch control could have additional software the makes sure power is put to the ground perfectly, every time.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Blip Bavarian

MDCT is faster every time. A human cant shift as fast as a computer. Also MDCT has launch control.

They said the same thing about SMG II/III, yet people with manuals were able to edge out the best 0-60 time. Yes the MDCT will be more consistent (..in terms of shifts) because it removes the human element from the equation, but it is my opinion that a traditional 6MT requires more skill to drive. LC doesn't necessarily dictate that an M-DCT car will win a 0-60 sprint every time. Like many have mentioned, there are too many variables to consider.

Originally Posted by jaiman

Yes. Because launch control will rev to the perfect rpm every time and a person won't. Also launch control could have additional software the makes sure power is put to the ground perfectly, every time.

The same thing can be accomplished by watching the tach, and modulation of a clutch/gas pedal.


In real world drag racing, it could go either way.

[rmmcdaniel]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

They said the same thing about SMG II/III, yet people with manuals were able to edge out the best 0-60 time. Yes the MDCT will be more consistent (..in terms of shifts) because it removes the human element from the equation, but it is my opinion that a traditional 6MT requires more skill to drive. LC doesn't necessarily dictate that an M-DCT car will win a 0-60 sprint every time. Like many have mentioned, there are too many variables to consider.




The same thing can be accomplished by watching the tach, and modulation of a clutch/gas pedal.


In real world drag racing, it could go either way.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the US E46 SMG numbers were only slower than 6MT because BMW USA handicapped the LC in the E46 M3 due to concerns with having to replace the transmission and other components as part of the full maintenance coverage that comes with US cars.

I believe non-US SMG equipped cars were consistently faster than non-US 6MT versions as the warranty/maintenance coverage outside of the US doesn't cover replacement of transmissions due to wear and tear like the US full service (i.e. "ultimate care") does, so it was on the owner to replace the tranny and other parts if they wanted to use LC excessively.

There was a Q&A thread with the BMW USA M brand manager about a month ago where he was asked if US M-DCT LC was going to be similarly handicapped and I believe he said he didn't think it was, but I haven't read anything to confirm one way or the other yet.

[!Xoible]

i thought SMG is not capable of matching MT coz of shift times and its inability to switch gears out of sequence coz it's sequential.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Yes. Because launch control will rev to the perfect rpm every time and a person won't. Also launch control could have additional software the makes sure power is put to the ground perfectly, every time.

No, not really. The computer doesn't take into account things like surface quality and conditions, temperature, etc. If it did then they would not give you the option of changing the LC rpm in 500 rpm increments. This will at least let a skillful driver tailor the launch to help compensate for changing conditions. But in the end, the DCT will pretty much get really good launches but the best will likely come from the best drivers with 6MT.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by Ryan(e92)

So everyone is saying that launch control is superior to revving an engine to the perfect rpm before dumping it? I think the op has a point. It seems Im just as biased as the M-DCT crowd. Damn. Just for the record what is the best 0-60 time for M-DCT?

Don't really know the right answer to that. Not enough data points. BMW claims, and so far at least one review has verified that DCT is .2 seconds faster to 60 than the DCT. We shall see if this stands up. That would mean that if the best times reported so far for the M3 -- 4.1 secs -- are correct, then it may be possible for the DCT to break into sub 4 seconds to sixty. But, I believe this is wishful thinking.

However, there is no right answer. Conditions are always changing. This would favor DCT for consistency. But a very skillful driver will be able to take into account the conditions better than DCT can and likely get a better launch. But, then again, the best driver is still human.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

i thought SMG is not capable of matching MT coz of shift times and its inability to switch gears out of sequence coz it's sequential.

SMG is not a real sequential transmission. You can double click a paddle for instance and skip a gear.

[!Xoible]

isnt it sequential-manual gearbox, or semi-manual gearbox? i mean what SMG stands for?

[BobbieBrighto]

BMW also has a system simply called "SMG" (an abbreviation for sequential manual gearbox), but it is not a true sequential, just a modified H-pattern gearbox which uses separate electronically controlled actuators on each of the 3 selector rails.

.

[!Xoible]

in any occasion, SMG feels slow in US, i agree

[ersin]

I believe translated SMG stands for Sequential M Gearing, I could be wrong. A true sequential transmission does not let you skip gears. SMG does. That doesn't make it bad, just different.

[trah23]

appreciate the feedback, well, most of the feedback, ive decided on MT however basically because for the 2700 M-DCT feature i could get alot of extra stuff which is exactly what my local advantage dealer has, a jetblack M3 fully loaded MT ($67,000), i should have it it in about 16 hours and ill try to post some pics.

It looks f'in sick as hell

On a side note the M3 i had ordered came out to be 67450 and it only had tech package, M-DCT, ipod converter and 19 inch rims. The one im gonna have is fully f'n loaded, just had to get the MT.

[ersin]

Originally Posted by trah23

appreciate the feedback, well, most of the feedback, ive decided on MT however basically because for the 2700 M-DCT feature i could get alot of extra stuff which is exactly what my local advantage dealer has, a jetblack M3 fully loaded MT ($67,000), i should have it it in about 16 hours and ill try to post some pics.

It looks f'in sick as hell

On a side note the M3 i had ordered came out to be 67450 and it only had tech package, M-DCT, ipod converter and 19 inch rims. The one im gonna have is fully f'n loaded, just had to get the MT.

Congratulations! Sounds like a good deal. Now try to get some sleep.

[McLuVan]

speed
mdct>6mt

fun
6mt>mdct

depends what ur buying the car for
speed(track racing) or fun

[gbelton]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Yes the MDCT will be more consistent (..in terms of shifts) because it removes the human element from the equation, but it is my opinion that a traditional 6MT requires more skill to drive.

I presume when you say, "removes the human element from the equation," you refer to launch-mode, where the driver has to only focus on steering and throttle to the floor, no?

Originally Posted by rmmcdaniel

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the US E46 SMG numbers were only slower than 6MT because BMW USA handicapped the LC in the E46 M3 due to concerns with having to replace the transmission and other components as part of the full maintenance coverage that comes with US cars.

Wrong. The SMG tranny adds more weight and is fuel inefficient. This is the reason you may have seen numbers faster in the 6MT versus SMG. US cars handicapped? Did you mean de-tuned? Example: USA '08 M3 @ 414HP versus EU '07-'08 M3 @ 420HP

Originally Posted by ersin

The computer doesn't take into account things like surface quality and conditions, temperature, etc.

These cars are 80%+ controlled by the many computers in the New M3, just to stay on topic. In fact, the very things you mention the computer doesn't do, it actually does. Might be hard to believe but it is True.

Originally Posted by ersin

SMG is not a real sequential transmission. You can double click a paddle for instance and skip a gear.

Can you provide some factual data to your comment? If it's just your opinion, no harm, no foul. Just for the record, you cannot SKIP gears in a SMG. You can however shift gears faster than any 6MT will ever produce; the numbers don't lie, opinions do.

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

isnt it sequential-manual gearbox, or semi-manual gearbox? i mean what SMG stands for?

SMG = Sequential Manual Gear

Originally Posted by ///Mantis

in any occasion, SMG feels slow in US, i agree

Hmm, I guess this is a matter of opinion. SMGears change within milliseconds, without having to reduce speed, decrease engine power or use a clutch.

Originally Posted by ersin

A true sequential transmission does not let you skip gears. SMG does. That doesn't make it bad, just different.

Wrong again. SMG does not allow you to skip Gears. Those of you have said this just make the facts more poient. You can shift so fast with SMG, some of you believe that you can skip gear shifts...

"SMGears change within milliseconds, without having to reduce speed, decrease engine power or use a clutch."

Cool thread nonetheless.