Clutch + Bearings + Gaskets = Pull the engine out?

[dtenev]

Just bought an 08 E90 M3 with 150k miles on it. In the next few months I am planning on doing lots of preventive maintenance which include a new clutch/flywheel, rod bearings, head gaskets, bushings, fluid...

The car was in an accident at some point and the panel gaps are not great so I will also remove the hood, bumper, and fenders to try and even them out.

I am doing all the work myself, and I have an engine hoist. I also have 535i as my daily so no need to rush the "M project car".

Do you recommend I should just pull the engine with tranny out or tackle one task at a time and keep the engine in place?

[rcracin]

Definitely pull the engine.

If you're doing headgaskets, might as well rebuild the engine. A new gasket kit, bearings, and bolt set is expensive, so might as well go the whole length.

[dtenev]

Thanks. I meant to say valve covers . Not planning to do head gaskets as the compression test came out great. +-5psi on all cylinders.

I might take your advice and just pull the engine out from the front.

I was actually pleasantly surprised to find that M3 parts are not that expensive.
ACL bearing set is $180, bolts are $300 or I can go OEM and spend less than $150 for bolts. That's a $400 bearing job. OEM clutch is cheap too. The labor is what gets you if you don't DIY.

[OmairK]

I'd probably reconsider your bearing choice especially since so much research has been done on this matter.

[dtenev]

Originally Posted by OmairK

I'd probably reconsider your bearing choice especially since so much research has been done on this matter.

Thanks for the info.
I know this is a very long discussion but I have not found negative reviews on ACL bearings. With a bit of searching online you can get them for $130, and I am also leaning towards OEM bolts. The torque procedure is not that complicated.

I am planning to start stripping the front end and pulling the engine out this weekend. New rod bearings, clutch, flywheel, gaskets, bushings. All for under $1,500 this M3 is 3x cheaper to run than my old Evo IX. Only if it was as fast.

[pbonsalb]

I used stock rod bolts. They work fine. They just take longer to install due to the double triple torque sequence.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by dtenev

Thanks for the info.
I know this is a very long discussion but I have not found negative reviews on ACL bearings. With a bit of searching online you can get them for $130, and I am also leaning towards OEM bolts. The torque procedure is not that complicated.

I am planning to start stripping the front end and pulling the engine out this weekend. New rod bearings, clutch, flywheel, gaskets, bushings. All for under $1,500 this M3 is 3x cheaper to run than my old Evo IX. Only if it was as fast.

Factory bolts are 100% fine - just a PITA.

ACL, IIRC can give you great clearance numbers. I think the ideal clearance comes from mixed sets. Check with Lang Racing as they might sell mixed sets.

One nice thing about BE is they verify the thicknesses of every shell and sell you sets that ensure proper specifications are met. No risk of manufacturing tolerances causing issues. But they do cost more.

Enjoy the work!!

Cheers,

[bmwpower603]

Nice to see someone with another high mileage s65.

Clutch and flywheel is my next major job.

Is there any specific reason your replacing your clutch?

I have 173k miles on my e90. I did BE bearings with genuine bmw bolts.

I would recommend also doing the chain tensioners as preventative. Before you start getting chain rattle. (I have this planned for summer) I think it’s an easy job. I believe it can be done without timing tools?

[Johal E32]

I would recommend you pull the motor.

I tackled rod bearings and valve cover gaskets on my E90 over the last few weekends and it really wasn't that bad of a job. I ended up using ACL bearings with ARP rod bolts and I have no issues

[dtenev]

The clutch is noisy when idling. Once the clutch pedal is pressed the noise goes away. It engages at the very top which makes it annoying, and there is also a lot of slop and clunks in the drive train. Some from the clutch and mostly from the mounts. Once I saw the the cost of a clutch and flywheel it was a no brainer.

I will most likely order ACL bearings and OEM bolts.
I will look into the chain tensioners. Thanks for the tip.
Any other suggestions while the engine and trans are out? It's already on its way.
On the pic the fender is removed because I want to realign it anyway. It was in an accident in its first year. Not salvage!

[rcracin]

funny how easy it all comes apart, right? i was super surprised when I first took one apart years ago.

[dtenev]

The best part about this particular M3 is that its a California car, and it has no rust at all. I am enjoying it so far. Only one bolt gave me troubles because some idiot before me over torqued it. I am used to Midwest Mitsubishis. That was hell, even the plastic was rusting on those.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by dtenev

The clutch is noisy when idling. Once the clutch pedal is pressed the noise goes away. It engages at the very top which makes it annoying, and there is also a lot of slop and clunks in the drive train. Some from the clutch and mostly from the mounts. Once I saw the the cost of a clutch and flywheel it was a no brainer.
!

FWIW, the noise is not the clutch. It's from back and forth movement of the gears in the transmission resulting from pressure pulses at the crankshaft. The crank does not move at a constant speed; each time a cylinder fires, it speeds up a bit and then slows down.

Those pulses are supposed to be damped by the dual mass flywheel but don't be surprised if you replace the flywheel and still hear the noise.

[serranot]

Originally Posted by dpaul

FWIW, the noise is not the clutch. It's from back and forth movement of the gears in the transmission resulting from pressure pulses at the crankshaft. The crank does not move at a constant speed; each time a cylinder fires, it speeds up a bit and then slows down.

Those pulses are supposed to be damped by the dual mass flywheel but don't be surprised if you replace the flywheel and still hear the noise.

I would guess the noise is the spring dampers in the clutch making noise, not the gears themselves. The dry clutch in my Ducati was the same way.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by serranot

I would guess the noise is the spring dampers in the clutch making noise, not the gears themselves. The dry clutch in my Ducati was the same way.

Do some searching. This is not a Ducati. It's a well known issue

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by dpaul

FWIW, the noise is not the clutch. It's from back and forth movement of the gears in the transmission resulting from pressure pulses at the crankshaft. The crank does not move at a constant speed; each time a cylinder fires, it speeds up a bit and then slows down.

Those pulses are supposed to be damped by the dual mass flywheel but don't be surprised if you replace the flywheel and still hear the noise.

Yeah, the M3 gearbox is not very quiet on the best of days. Even with the dual mass flywheel, it can chatter at idle. BMW increased the flywheel mass early on due to people complaining about gear chatter.

Cheers,

[SupraSaiyan]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

BMW increased the flywheel mass early on due to people complaining about gear chatter.

Cheers,

OT, but very curious, does anyone know how much lighter the 08 flywheel is compared to the 09+?

[pbonsalb]

Don’t know. But BMW also changed the crank 4 times and they vary from about 40-45 lbs.

[dtenev]

I hope the idle noise is not the back and forth movement of the gears. Its pretty loud. Based on other cars its most likely the throw out bearing that is worn. I am really hoping that the M3 driving experience will improve a lot after the clutch and bushing changes. Right now its super sloppy. The drive train feels disconnected. I will keep you updated with new posts as I work on the car. All parts are ordered already.

What else do you recommend I should do to the engine as its out. I could go all out and do main bearings, but I rather save that for past 200k miles. Do you recommend timing chain guides, and tensionners? The car is at 150k miles now.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by dtenev

I hope the idle noise is not the back and forth movement of the gears. Its pretty loud. Based on other cars its most likely the throw out bearing that is worn. I am really hoping that the M3 driving experience will improve a lot after the clutch and bushing changes. Right now its super sloppy. The drive train feels disconnected. I will keep you updated with new posts as I work on the car. All parts are ordered already.

What else do you recommend I should do to the engine as its out. I could go all out and do main bearings, but I rather save that for past 200k miles. Do you recommend timing chain guides, and tensionners? The car is at 150k miles now.

The noise goes AWAY when you push the clutch pedal, correct? If the throw out bearing was bad, you'd hear the noise when you push the pedal because that's when the TO bearing has a load on it and is rotating. When the pedal is released, the TO bearing is just sitting there, not touching anything and not rotating. The noise is NOT your TO bearing.

There certainly could be other problems with the clutch but the symptoms you describe match those when the dual mass flywheel is out of spec. The problem is that the M3 DMF is barely able to do the job of damping even when new. After all, this is supposed to be a sports car. In the N54 world, people throw away their DMFs and replace them with single mass, lightened flywheels for performance reasons, and live more or less happily with the gearbox noise.

[Richneerd]

I just bought a high mileage 6speed 08 M3 myself, 160k. I don't know the service history of it.

I'll do what the OP did.

I'll look into a dual mass flywheel, replacing rod bearings and throttle actuators.

[dpaul]

Originally Posted by Richneerd

I just bought a high mileage 6speed 08 M3 myself, 160k. I don't know the service history of it.

I'll do what the OP did.

I'll look into a dual mass flywheel, replacing rod bearings and throttle actuators.

Sorry, why do you think you need to replace the clutch or the flywheel? Or the throttle actuators for that matter? Have there been codes involving the actuators?

The actuators and the flywheel are not cheap. Just because others have experienced problems with them does not mean that you will. The rod bearings I would do because a failure could destroy the engine. Clutch/flywheel and TA, not so much.