BMWNA Sucks!

Radiation Joe · 03-22-2010, 02:06 PM

Refused to change the fluid in my DCT when I asked for it and offered to pay. Lifetime fluid is BS as we all know.

PRICKS.

Memphis1 · 03-22-2010, 02:23 PM

"In developing fluids for the new generation of DCTs, lubricant engineers are faced with a whole new set of demands, several of which appear contradictory. In the case of wet-clutch DCTs the major difference is of course that the lubricant now has to cope with a set of clutches, as well as the normal gears, bearings, selectors and shafts. Thus the specific DCT fluid needs to provide:

* Lubrication of the clutches, gears, shafts, bearings and synchronizers
* Heat dispersal for the entire system
* Hydraulic actuation of the clutches and gear changes
* Protection of the transmission against wear and corrosion"

"The DCT fluid's formulation must protect the clutches and sustain consistent launch and anti-shudder durability for the lifetime of the transmission, estimated at two million shifts. The DCT fluid plays a major part in controlling friction response, itself the key to smooth and consistent shift quality - the raison d'etre of the DCT principle. In laboratory testing, a conventional ATF is unable to withstand the stresses that build up over the equivalent of 100,000 to 150,000km; new-generation DCT fluids, on the other hand, retain excellent anti-shudder durability throughout the laboratory tests."

"The effect clearly shows the need for a new and dedicated additive technology system for fluids used in dual clutch transmissions: in addition to providing correct friction control, the lubricant additive technology must promote cleansing of the lining material to prolong the life of the clutch."

aus · 03-22-2010, 02:47 PM

There was a thread on this before where BMW doesn't want to take any chance of dealers putting the wrong fluid in the DCT tranny like they did the first few 1,200 mile service's done in the US. Of course BMW didn't exactly tell the dealers the fluid was different than the SMG fluid. Hopefully they'll change their tune in a couple years. I would hate to have to run the same fluid for over 50,000 miles

mkoesel · 03-22-2010, 02:55 PM

Joe, I don't think its BMW NA specific - I think that's the worldwide policy.

I wonder if the fluid can be sourced elsewhere? You could always change it yourself.

Fanta · 03-22-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhostRideTheWhip

Joe, you seem to be pretty fed up with your M3.

Are you thinking of ever switching to an Audi or Mercedes-Benz anytime soon? Your dealer isn't taking very good care of you.

I have a Mercedes C320. The transmission fluid is also for lifetime.
Tune shop refuse to change my automatic transmission fluid due to self adjust.
The reason is:
Once transmission fluid start to break down; become thinner and transmission start to self adjust. If they change to new fluid, new thick fluid may not be able to reach everywhere and they may need to replace the transmission. All I can do is prepare for a new transmission.

JMD0977 · 03-22-2010, 03:03 PM

They need to issue a "PUMA" case in order to get it done and get the fluid. If your SA is cool, he can find a way to get it done through "PUMA". Or just say that in consistently slips when shifting, noises when hot... make up something sound.

Fanta · 03-22-2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMD0977

They need to issue a "PUMA" case in order to get it done and get the fluid. If your SA is cool, he can find a way to get it done through "PUMA". Or just say that in consistently slips when shifting, noises when hot... make up something sound.

They can use computer to measue fluid flowing rate!

sehrgut · 03-22-2010, 04:33 PM

I'm with you dude. Total BS, we all know its not gonna last a lifetime. Sucks for the people that gonna buy our cars used when they got +30k miles.

BobsM3Coupe · 03-22-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMD0977

They need to issue a "PUMA" case in order to get it done and get the fluid. If your SA is cool, he can find a way to get it done through "PUMA". Or just say that in consistently slips when shifting, noises when hot... make up something sound.

I've seen the word "puma" used before. I imagine it stands for having a dealership open a case for a request.

What does "puma" actually stand for?

Radiation Joe · 03-22-2010, 06:06 PM

PUMA case opened and BMWNA said no.

To those of you who believe Lifetime fluid is some kind of magic secret sauce the engineers came up with, I have a bridge to sell you.

By the way I'm approaching 50k miles and besides the lag, my wonderful transmission is getting erratic in it's clutch actuation. It is just common sense good maintenance to change fluids as the miles start to build up.

southlight · 03-22-2010, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobsM3Coupe

What does "puma" actually stand for?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...68#post5221468

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

PUMA case opened and BMWNA said no.

To those of you who believe Lifetime fluid is some kind of magic secret sauce the engineers came up with, I have a bridge to sell you.

By the way I'm approaching 50k miles and besides the lag, my wonderful transmission is getting erratic in it's clutch actuation. It is just common sense good maintenance to change fluids as the miles start to build up.

Sorry to hear that you're still having quite some issues.

Best regards,
south

aus · 03-22-2010, 07:25 PM

Radiation Joe, you may want to consider an extended warranty since they're not willing to change it out and you're having some problems.

03-22-2010, 10:24 PM

why don't you do it yourself. BMW already sell the Pentosin FFL4 fluid. Filling and draining is easy. Your most difficult job is finding a replacement strainer/filter.

03-22-2010, 10:27 PM

aus · 03-22-2010, 11:09 PM

I don't think they import any to the US.

Bob MG · 03-23-2010, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Joe, I don't think its BMW NA specific - I think that's the worldwide policy.

I wonder if the fluid can be sourced elsewhere? You could always change it yourself.

+1 joe

change it yourself, can't be hard
I will do a full change
of all oils before SC goes in. My car has 3500 miles on it, can't hurt to start with new oils? And cost of oils can't be bad

mkoesel · 03-23-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob MG

And cost of oils can't be bad

Ah, but therein lies the rub.

From what I recall the stuff is like $70 a quart. I think the tranny holds about 6 quarts (?). So yeah, its not cheap. But its a lot cheaper than a new transmission.

M3Bliss · 03-23-2010, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

Refused to change the fluid in my DCT when I asked for it and offered to pay. Lifetime fluid is BS as we all know.

Ran across an old issue of Car and Driver, Feb 2010, where they reported on the long term test of a 2008 M3 w/DCT. Two very interesting points:

1) On page 89 "As for service, after an initial 1200 mile stop to replace the engine oil and the transmission and differential fluids....."

2) On page 90 "If the clutches need to be replaced, our local dealer quoted us $3296 for the job!

If this is a sealed unit with lifetime fluid how did C&D get theirs changed at 1200 miles and how was their dealer able to quote them a price for a clutch change? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information in regards to this unit. Owners in the NAGTROC are able to get their fluids changed regularly (but expensive

) so why should this unit be any different? Mongo is confused.

GT3 Tim · 03-23-2010, 09:25 AM

Wow. That sucks Joe.

I have a Lexus GX470 with an auto tranny (typically auto). The fluid is "lifetime" as well.

Well, I demanded they changed it at 30, 60 and 90K. They hate doing it as there isn't even a fill tube on the tranny and they have to pump it in the drain hole. BUT, they do it, at my expense.

I think that is total BS that they will not service a car per the customers demands. WHO'S car is it anyways? BMW's? WTF??

I would find another dealer or try another route. We all know "lifetime" fluid is the lifetime of the fluid, not the owner. lol. Maybe they mean 'lifetime" of the tranny. When the tranny dies from old gunky fluid, its time for a NEW tranny AND fluid. lol

Keep fighting Joe, that is total BS. You would think BMW owns your car, not you!

Edit: I also demanded the diff fluid and gearbox oil be changed on my GT3 at about 15K, just as preventative maintenance...they thought I was fricken nuts as it is "90K fluid"....and that crap for the diff was like $80/quart....but they did it, at my expense of course. I just don't get BMW....

mkoesel · 03-23-2010, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3Bliss

If this is a sealed unit with lifetime fluid how did C&D get theirs changed at 1200 miles and how was their dealer able to quote them a price for a clutch change? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information in regards to this unit.

Seems like C&D got bad info. I'll bet they were being quoted info for a 6MT, or the guy just made up some BS because he wanted to sounds smart in front of the C&D guys. Or any other of a number of possibilities - none of which reflect the reality that is the fact that BMW won't change the fluid for any price.

Quote:

Mongo is confused.

No idea what that means.

gr8000 · 03-23-2010, 09:47 AM

I wouldn't take the risk in changing it myself. If something goes wrong (and I sence there can be quite a few things that can go wrong), there goes your warranty and then you better be prepared to put the hand deep in your pocket.

Just extend your warrantee and call it a day. Then the risk lies with BMW.

RichB · 03-23-2010, 07:54 PM

Maybe it is just me, but unless you are racing the car every weekend I just do not see the need to replace the fluids more frequently than recommended by BMW. IMO it seems like it is more of an emotional decision to change fluids more frequently than scientifically. A friend of mine was harassing me about my 15K mile oil changes on my 540i (7 yrs ago). He worked for an automotive additive company and asked to send a sample of my 16K mile oil to the lab for testing. The oil came back with a clean bill of health. Needless to say he was surprised and never mentioned it again.

I still have the test results. They tested 7 wear metals, 2 contaminant metals, 8 additive metals, viscosity, water %, glycol %, fuel dilution %, oxidation, nitration, and TBN. After receiving the test results, I was confident in the fluid change recommendation. BTW...I am not easy on the throttle.

03-22-2010, 02:06 PM	#1
Radiation Joe Veni Vidi Vici 89 Rep 2,750 Posts Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Macungie PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 e90 M3-Sold [8.50] 2003 RS6 - Sold [0.00] 2009 e90 M3 - Gone [0.00] 2003 M3 SOLD [0.00] old 2002 [10.00]	BMWNA Sucks! Refused to change the fluid in my DCT when I asked for it and offered to pay. Lifetime fluid is BS as we all know. PRICKS.
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03-22-2010, 02:23 PM	#2
Memphis1 Lieutenant Colonel 93 Rep 1,838 Posts Drives: Z4 SDrive 35i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CT iTrader: (0)	"In developing fluids for the new generation of DCTs, lubricant engineers are faced with a whole new set of demands, several of which appear contradictory. In the case of wet-clutch DCTs the major difference is of course that the lubricant now has to cope with a set of clutches, as well as the normal gears, bearings, selectors and shafts. Thus the specific DCT fluid needs to provide: * Lubrication of the clutches, gears, shafts, bearings and synchronizers * Heat dispersal for the entire system * Hydraulic actuation of the clutches and gear changes * Protection of the transmission against wear and corrosion" "The DCT fluid's formulation must protect the clutches and sustain consistent launch and anti-shudder durability for the lifetime of the transmission, estimated at two million shifts. The DCT fluid plays a major part in controlling friction response, itself the key to smooth and consistent shift quality - the raison d'etre of the DCT principle. In laboratory testing, a conventional ATF is unable to withstand the stresses that build up over the equivalent of 100,000 to 150,000km; new-generation DCT fluids, on the other hand, retain excellent anti-shudder durability throughout the laboratory tests." "The effect clearly shows the need for a new and dedicated additive technology system for fluids used in dual clutch transmissions: in addition to providing correct friction control, the lubricant additive technology must promote cleansing of the lining material to prolong the life of the clutch."
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03-22-2010, 02:47 PM	#3
aus Major General 894 Rep 9,034 Posts Drives: Odysse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	There was a thread on this before where BMW doesn't want to take any chance of dealers putting the wrong fluid in the DCT tranny like they did the first few 1,200 mile service's done in the US. Of course BMW didn't exactly tell the dealers the fluid was different than the SMG fluid. Hopefully they'll change their tune in a couple years. I would hate to have to run the same fluid for over 50,000 miles __________________ Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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03-22-2010, 02:55 PM	#4
mkoesel Moderator 7525 Rep 19,368 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Joe, I don't think its BMW NA specific - I think that's the worldwide policy. I wonder if the fluid can be sourced elsewhere? You could always change it yourself.
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03-22-2010, 03:03 PM	#6
JMD0977 Captain 69 Rep 994 Posts Drives: 2010 GT3 and .... Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: I-95 iTrader: (6)	They need to issue a "PUMA" case in order to get it done and get the fluid. If your SA is cool, he can find a way to get it done through "PUMA". Or just say that in consistently slips when shifting, noises when hot... make up something sound.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-22-2010, 04:33 PM	#8
sehrgut Major 33 Rep 1,033 Posts Drives: emthree Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: socal iTrader: (1)	I'm with you dude. Total BS, we all know its not gonna last a lifetime. Sucks for the people that gonna buy our cars used when they got +30k miles.
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03-22-2010, 06:06 PM	#10
Radiation Joe Veni Vidi Vici 89 Rep 2,750 Posts Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Macungie PA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 e90 M3-Sold [8.50] 2003 RS6 - Sold [0.00] 2009 e90 M3 - Gone [0.00] 2003 M3 SOLD [0.00] old 2002 [10.00]	PUMA case opened and BMWNA said no. To those of you who believe Lifetime fluid is some kind of magic secret sauce the engineers came up with, I have a bridge to sell you. By the way I'm approaching 50k miles and besides the lag, my wonderful transmission is getting erratic in it's clutch actuation. It is just common sense good maintenance to change fluids as the miles start to build up.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-22-2010, 07:25 PM	#12
aus Major General 894 Rep 9,034 Posts Drives: Odysse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	Radiation Joe, you may want to consider an extended warranty since they're not willing to change it out and you're having some problems. __________________ Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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03-22-2010, 10:24 PM	#13
///M Protocol Guest 0 Rep n/a Posts Drives:	why don't you do it yourself. BMW already sell the Pentosin FFL4 fluid. Filling and draining is easy. Your most difficult job is finding a replacement strainer/filter.
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03-22-2010, 10:27 PM	#14
///M Protocol Guest 0 Rep n/a Posts Drives:
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03-22-2010, 11:09 PM	#15
aus Major General 894 Rep 9,034 Posts Drives: Odysse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	I don't think they import any to the US. __________________ Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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03-23-2010, 09:25 AM	#19
GT3 Tim Moderator 96 Rep 1,920 Posts Drives: 2014 MB E63S Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sacramento, CA iTrader: (0)	Wow. That sucks Joe. I have a Lexus GX470 with an auto tranny (typically auto). The fluid is "lifetime" as well. Well, I demanded they changed it at 30, 60 and 90K. They hate doing it as there isn't even a fill tube on the tranny and they have to pump it in the drain hole. BUT, they do it, at my expense. I think that is total BS that they will not service a car per the customers demands. WHO'S car is it anyways? BMW's? WTF?? I would find another dealer or try another route. We all know "lifetime" fluid is the lifetime of the fluid, not the owner. lol. Maybe they mean 'lifetime" of the tranny. When the tranny dies from old gunky fluid, its time for a NEW tranny AND fluid. lol Keep fighting Joe, that is total BS. You would think BMW owns your car, not you! Edit: I also demanded the diff fluid and gearbox oil be changed on my GT3 at about 15K, just as preventative maintenance...they thought I was fricken nuts as it is "90K fluid"....and that crap for the diff was like $80/quart....but they did it, at my expense of course. I just don't get BMW.... __________________ Tim <--- apparently likes "3" cars 2014 E63S -- The Rocket 2014 F30 328i -- Kids car 2008 E90 M3 -- Sold 2004 GT3 -- Sold 1997 M3/4 -- Sold 1995 M3 -- Sold
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03-23-2010, 09:47 AM	#21
gr8000 Major 72 Rep 1,171 Posts Drives: E92 M3 - DCT Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, Greece iTrader: (0)	I wouldn't take the risk in changing it myself. If something goes wrong (and I sence there can be quite a few things that can go wrong), there goes your warranty and then you better be prepared to put the hand deep in your pocket. Just extend your warrantee and call it a day. Then the risk lies with BMW.
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03-23-2010, 07:54 PM	#22
RichB Private First Class 7 Rep 156 Posts Drives: 2010 M3 e90 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO iTrader: (0)	Maybe it is just me, but unless you are racing the car every weekend I just do not see the need to replace the fluids more frequently than recommended by BMW. IMO it seems like it is more of an emotional decision to change fluids more frequently than scientifically. A friend of mine was harassing me about my 15K mile oil changes on my 540i (7 yrs ago). He worked for an automotive additive company and asked to send a sample of my 16K mile oil to the lab for testing. The oil came back with a clean bill of health. Needless to say he was surprised and never mentioned it again. I still have the test results. They tested 7 wear metals, 2 contaminant metals, 8 additive metals, viscosity, water %, glycol %, fuel dilution %, oxidation, nitration, and TBN. After receiving the test results, I was confident in the fluid change recommendation. BTW...I am not easy on the throttle.
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