Weight of leather & options

[JoeFromPA]

Hi all,

So with the pricing and order sheets officially released, I've come to the conclusion that I'm either going with a pure base m3 (possibly with a metallic color) OR spending a ridiculous $7-8k on the exec package + full leather. I don't want rear heated seats, headlight washers, etc.

So I guess I'm curious if anyone has knowledge of the weight impact of some of these options given the U.S. Curb weight (which is described as "commonly equipped" versions) it much higher than the absolute rock bottom weight quoted by M.

Does anyone have an idea how much weight the following adds:

1. Extended leather over cloth
2. Full leather over cloth or over extended
3. Rear heated seats and heated steering wheel
4. Retractable headlight washers and associated parts
5. HUD

I'm purely guessing but I think that the exec package + full leather = 60-80 pounds.

I hadn't ever really wanted to go with cloth, but wanted full leather. But the idea of jacking up the price a minimum of $4k just for extended leather - and a maximum of $7.5k - + adding 2-3% weight...

I don't know. Despite wanting HUD and a few other things, truly considering a full-base M3 for the first time.

[bavarian19]

I guess the question really is: Do you plan on tracking the car so much that the weight difference would actually mean anything?

If you do plan on tracking it that much, you might as well go full spec cage and pull out everything unnecessary, or go dedicated track car with the M3 DD.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

I guess the question really is: Do you plan on tracking the car so much that the weight difference would actually mean anything?

If you do plan on tracking it that much, you might as well go full spec cage and pull out everything unnecessary, or go dedicated track car with the M3 DD.

I don't agree with this stance. 50 pounds to me matters in a daily driver. I can readily notice 100 pounds in my lighter-weight vehicles. Heck, I can notice a difference of 3-4 pounds per tire when replacing tires, given it's rotating mass.

I care about optioning up or down my vehicle in a way that notably impacts weight AND dramatically increases price.

So my question is: How much do these options add, weight wise? I don't have a good sense right now.

[JoeFromPA]

Originally Posted by bavarian19

I guess the question really is: Do you plan on tracking the car so much that the weight/steering/body roll/throttle response/LSD difference would actually mean anything?

If you do plan on tracking it that much, you might as well go full spec cage and pull out everything unnecessary, or go dedicated track car with the M3 DD.

Added a few more examples to make my point - we tend to care about even minor differences in things like steering feel and throttle response even for daily driving. And thus I care about the minor differences in 50-100 pounds I don't want. For example, the 40 pounds at the highest point of a sunroof is, to me, totally noticeable when I toss my vehicle hard into a corner on back road bombing.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Hi all,

So with the pricing and order sheets officially released, I've come to the conclusion that I'm either going with a pure base m3 (possibly with a metallic color) OR spending a ridiculous $7-8k on the exec package + full leather. I don't want rear heated seats, headlight washers, etc.

So I guess I'm curious if anyone has knowledge of the weight impact of some of these options given the U.S. Curb weight (which is described as "commonly equipped" versions) it much higher than the absolute rock bottom weight quoted by M.

Does anyone have an idea how much weight the following adds:

1. Extended leather over cloth
2. Full leather over cloth or over extended
3. Rear heated seats and heated steering wheel
4. Retractable headlight washers and associated parts
5. HUD

I'm purely guessing but I think that the exec package + full leather = 60-80 pounds.

I hadn't ever really wanted to go with cloth, but wanted full leather. But the idea of jacking up the price a minimum of $4k just for extended leather - and a maximum of $7.5k - + adding 2-3% weight...

I don't know. Despite wanting HUD and a few other things, truly considering a full-base M3 for the first time.

If I may be honest, I don't believe that the things you listed will have a significant impact on weight. The few ounces of leather on the dash or the few ounces you might save from the sections covered in cloth as opposed to leather really won't make a significant difference. Headlight washers and the associated mechanicals weigh about as much as a bowl of cereal without the milk. This is another one of those situations where taking a good shit before you drive will net more of a weight savings than the combination of the things you listed.

[JoeFromPA]

If you are right, then I am happy. I have read that the U.S. listed curb weight is about 100-125 pounds more than expected but that the U.S. curb weight must be listed using the expected option level.

I'm assuming that means, in essence, the executive package and possibly the DCT - unless they are also including sunroof.

That would indicate the exec package weighs 50-75 pounds if no sunroof is included, or perhaps 15-35 pounds if a sunroof is included.

My experience is that leather weighs a good amount, a retractable headlight washer system is between 5-10 pounds, etc.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

If you are right, then I am happy. I have read that the U.S. listed curb weight is about 100-125 pounds more than expected but that the U.S. curb weight must be listed using the expected option level.

I'm assuming that means, in essence, the executive package and possibly the DCT - unless they are also including sunroof.

That would indicate the exec package weighs 50-75 pounds if no sunroof is included, or perhaps 15-35 pounds if a sunroof is included.

My experience is that leather weighs a good amount, a retractable headlight washer system is between 5-10 pounds, etc.

I think you had your moonroof/no moonroof weight estimations backwards. Likely a typo!

[ixse]

everytime i read these posts i just wonder how much of track star these guys are. that they need to worry so much for 100lb weight diff.. if that.. trust me in this.. ive seen people making fools out of themselves at the track with their so called "gutted out" hella hp cars. its the driver skills that matter the most in most amateur events. considering most of us are not pro race car drivers (although some may think they are), you wont notice few lb difference in a car. Ofcourse if you into drag races or hwy pulls (i call it monkey race since any monkey can put his foot down the go pedal) than you may see some difference. if thats worth more than anything to you, go for it.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by ixse

everytime i read these posts i just wonder how much of track star these guys are. that they need to worry so much for 100lb weight diff.. if that.. trust me in this.. ive seen people making fools out of themselves at the track with their so called "gutted out" hella hp cars. its the driver skills that matter the most in most amateur events. considering most of us are not pro race car drivers (although some may think they are), you wont notice few lb difference in a car. Ofcourse if you into drag races or hwy pulls (i call it monkey race since any monkey can put his foot down the go pedal) than you may see some difference. if thats worth more than anything to you, go for it.

While I understand your point and many of these posts are nitpicking, I do understand where JoeFromPA is coming from (PA, I believe)

In all seriousness, when you have one large passenger or two small ones, say 200lbs total, there is a discernible difference in both acceleration and braking and heave that can be detected in everyday driving. I don't think it's bad that he wants to know how much weight these options will add. And I think people would be surprised how they can add, especially leather (not that I care, leather is a must-have for me).

One last point, weight means basically nothing on a highway pull. Only power and frontal area. Simple example without getting technical; watch an Elise vs an E39 M5 from the lights, and then watch them from a 50mph up to 130mph roll on.

[JoeFromPA]

Ixse - I have not once mentioned the track and have specifically said this is important to me in a daily driver. On my e39 m5 I can feel a 50 pound difference (specifically in my exhaust changes, as this exhaust system is extremely heavy stock). I'm not saying I perform better, I'm saying I enjoy the feeling I sense of a lightweight agile vehicle. AND I have experience switching out things like lightweight tires for heavier tires, heavy exhaust systems for much lighter, dropping off a 100 pound passenger - and noticing the difference.

While I appreciate the condescension, you both misinterpreted my statements, didn't read thoroughly, and didn't attempt to answer the questions.

[PABrian]

Never, ever underestimate the power of weight reduction! Every little bit helps, so when someone is looking for it, there really is no need to marginalize it.

I wish I had exact answers to how much those things weigh, but without weighing different cars or parts with/without leather etc., it would be difficult to tell for sure.

No sunroof is of course a no-brainer. If I had to guess on the rest: heated seats and steering wheel will be very negligible, but if you don't need them, there's no sense in getting them unless you're worried about resale value. HUD might be around 5lbs, maybe 7. Wrapping the dash in leather would be negligible, as AFAIK they don't wrap the vinyl in leather, you get leather instead, so maybe 1-2lbs. Going with leather seats over cloth won't be small, as cloth weighs next to nothing (relatively speaking) and wrapping them in leather replaces very little material.

Basically, I'd worry about sunroof and leather SEATS more than any other individual option. For the rest, if I were you, I'd weigh desire for the option much more heavily than the weight impact of it. Yeah, I did say every little bit of weight reduction helps, but these are creature comforts that can matter a decent amount to some people, and in my experience, a few small creature comforts in a daily driver can go a long way.

[JoeFromPA]

Brian,

I agree. In the abstract, I'd go with HUD and full leather. But the reality is that getting those two things costs me $7500. I'd also like to understand the weight penalty involved. To your point, negligible weight gain means I'm only balancing cost.

[Carl L]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Brian,

I agree. In the abstract, I'd go with HUD and full leather. But the reality is that getting those two things costs me $7500. I'd also like to understand the weight penalty involved. To your point, negligible weight gain means I'm only balancing cost.

$6,950, but yes it's a lot of money due to the infuriating "packaging" of options.

[hayasa]

Hey folks, just my $0.02 regarding the effect of weight on performance. The general rule is for every 10 pounds you add, you lose the equivalent of 1 horsepower. Unsprung weight, even more so. This means that to maintain the same level of performance, you have a 10:1 ratio. The other rule of thumb is that you can't "feel" anything less than a 5% change in horsepower (although butt-dynos vary in sensitivity.) Since the M3 has a reported 430 hp, you would only be able to begin to feel the difference of ~20 hp, or about 200 lbs. Of course, weight is also the enemy of braking and turning, so any weight savings is good. But for the "I don't want to add weight because it will slow me down" crowd, I'd keep the 200 lb as the sweet-spot of whether or not to "add lightness."

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by hayasa

The general rule is for every 10 pounds you add, you lose the equivalent of 1 horsepower. Unsprung weight, even more so.

You probably meant rotating mass. Unsprung weight that is not rotating (calipers, springs, shocks, etc...) has the same impact on power-to-weight as sprung weight.

[PABrian]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

You probably meant rotating mass. Unsprung weight that is not rotating (calipers, springs, shocks, etc...) has the same impact on power-to-weight as sprung weight.

True, but reducing unsprung non-rotating mass results in the suspension being able to do its job better

Minor and esoteric, but it's there!

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by hayasa

Hey folks, just my $0.02 regarding the effect of weight on performance. The general rule is for every 10 pounds you add, you lose the equivalent of 1 horsepower. Unsprung weight, even more so. This means that to maintain the same level of performance, you have a 10:1 ratio. The other rule of thumb is that you can't "feel" anything less than a 5% change in horsepower (although butt-dynos vary in sensitivity.) Since the M3 has a reported 430 hp, you would only be able to begin to feel the difference of ~20 hp, or about 200 lbs. Of course, weight is also the enemy of braking and turning, so any weight savings is good. But for the "I don't want to add weight because it will slow me down" crowd, I'd keep the 200 lb as the sweet-spot of whether or not to "add lightness."

this is no general rule there. that is obviously only true for a car whose weightower ratio is 10:1. maybe that's the case for your Audi.

in the case of the M3/4, the rule would be about 8:1 (~3.5k pounds to 430 hp).

[PABrian]

Originally Posted by Brosef

this is no general rule there. that is obviously only true for a car whose weightower ratio is 10:1. maybe that's the case for your Audi.

in the case of the M3/4, the rule would be about 8:1 (~3.5k pounds to 430 hp).

It's just as much a "general rule" as drivetrain loss is. Saying you lose 10% power from the crank to the wheels across all cars is just silly. If you dyno a 500hp car, get 450whp, and assume 10% drivetrain loss, if you do work to it and it now puts out 600hp, your drivetrain doesn't magically suck more power away from the engine.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by OttosBMWBrian

It's just as much a "general rule" as drivetrain loss is. Saying you lose 10% power from the crank to the wheels across all cars is just silly. If you dyno a 500hp car, get 450whp, and assume 10% drivetrain loss, if you do work to it and it now puts out 600hp, your drivetrain doesn't magically suck more power away from the engine.

no, it's way worse as the ratio increases/decreases proportionally with the weight or power of a given car. a car with half as much HP but the same weight would have a ratio that is 2x higher.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by OttosBMWBrian

True, but reducing unsprung non-rotating mass results in the suspension being able to do its job better

Minor and esoteric, but it's there!

Agreed. Reducing unsprung mass improves handling

[czarmar]

Hey Joe, I followed you during your search for the perfect e39. I tend to think the extended leather seating will add the most weight over a stock car of anything in the ZEC. Here's my guess on weights:
Heated rear seats: 10 lbs of heat pads, wiring and switches. IMHO, useless weight.
HUD: 10 lbs
Headlight washers, reservior, pump, tubing: 10 lbs. I deleted this from my e39. Another useless thing.
PDC probably adds at most 10 lbs of sensors and wiring.
Leather Upholstery: I'd say it probably weighs 30 lbs more than speed cloth.
Full Leather probably adds another 5-10 lbs.
Rear view camera is probably pretty minimal, 2-3 lbs at most of extra wiring.

I think I'll be taking extended leather anyway I go, but it looks like ZEC would add ~80 lbs to the car, mostly with the leather upholstery. I'm also going with the extra 50 lbs for the sunroof, can't see life without one.

The big weight gainers will be the DCT at 40 Kg(85 lbs), Moonroof (~50lbs more than CF roof), leather, and possibly wheels. That said going from a close to 4000 lb M5 to a ~3500 lb F80 will still be great. I wouldn't miss the recirculating ball steering.

[Brosef]

Originally Posted by czarmar

Hey Joe, I followed you during your search for the perfect e39. I tend to think the extended leather seating will add the most weight over a stock car of anything in the ZEC. Here's my guess on weights:
Heated rear seats: 10 lbs of heat pads, wiring and switches. IMHO, useless weight.
HUD: 10 lbs
Headlight washers, reservior, pump, tubing: 10 lbs. I deleted this from my e39. Another useless thing.
PDC probably adds at most 10 lbs of sensors and wiring.
Leather Upholstery: I'd say it probably weighs 30 lbs more than speed cloth.
Full Leather probably adds another 5-10 lbs.
Rear view camera is probably pretty minimal, 2-3 lbs at most of extra wiring.

I think I'll be taking extended leather anyway I go, but it looks like ZEC would add ~80 lbs to the car, mostly with the leather upholstery. I'm also going with the extra 50 lbs for the sunroof, can't see life without one.

The big weight gainers will be the DCT at 40 Kg(85 lbs), Moonroof (~50lbs more than CF roof), leather, and possibly wheels. That said going from a close to 4000 lb M5 to a ~3500 lb F80 will still be great. I wouldn't miss the recirculating ball steering.

I think those weights are fairly generous. here would be my guesses:

"Extended" Leather: 20 lbs (full leather would add an extra 5)
HUD - 5 lbs
Heated rear seats - 5-10 lbs
Headlight washers - 10 lbs
PDC and Rear Camera - 3 lbs at most

in all, that works out to 43 - 53 lbs of extra weight. not a huge penalty, but not meaningless.